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[Music]

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[Applause]

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hello and

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welcome we're shooting this class in a

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place called alist Tully Hall on the

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corner of 65th Street in Broadway in

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Manhattan at Lincoln Center and it um

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means a great deal to me it has a lot of

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significance for me because every fall

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this is where the New York Film Festival

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takes place and when I was young um I

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came to the festival every year to see

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pictures from all over the world I had

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sometimes I was able to get into the

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Press screening because I had a couple

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of short films shown in the first few

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festivals we saw new work from great

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filmmakers like uh Luis bunwell Fran

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trufo Jean luk godar and Nagisa osima so

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many remarkable movies and we were all

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just enthralled by the movies coming

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from all over the globe in those days

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and as we went and absorbed those

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pictures we were receiving an

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education it wasn't the reverse we

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didn't set out to make a study of

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anything we were immersed and entranced

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and on fire and the education

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just naturally

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followed and that's the way it is when

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you're pursuing an obsession when you're

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going where you're drawn to go where you

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have to go as opposed to where you think

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it might be fun to go or where you think

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you should

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go so if you're intrigued by movie

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making as a

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career uh this isn't the class for

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you but if you need to make movies a

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movie if you feel like you can't rest

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until you've you know told this

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particular story that you're burning to

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tell and moving images and sounds then I

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could be speaking to you because um

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that's who I was when I started making

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pictures and when I made Mean Streets

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and showed it here in this theater for

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the first time to the public and the New

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York Film Festival audience in

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1973 so I'm going to be speaking

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personally and that's the only way I can

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speak about making movies I'm not going

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to give you a

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blueprint uh there are no shortcuts

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I'm going to give you some practical

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advice along the way but the most

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important thing I can convey to you is

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that you always have to find your own

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way you can be inspired you can learn

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about cameras and sound equipment

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editing tools uh but in the end it's

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just

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you that's what you have to guard that's

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what's

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precious so I'm Martin soressi and this

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is my master class

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I'm often asked about the relationship

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between my original desire

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to enter the

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priesthood um and my love for film um in

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other words in a sense going from one

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vocation which is one calling

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it's called one calling which to the

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priesthood to another which is a calling

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which it is a a a um commitment uh to a

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way of life and that is the film making

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uh of course it's a very you know

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personal matter but um but I will say

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that it was a matter of being honest

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with myself as best I could and

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realizing that uh you must do what

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you're called to do within yourself um

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the uh church and and uh

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Cinema they both made sense to me one

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particular priest who was a very very

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influential in my upbringing from the

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age of 11 to age of 17 or 18 um and that

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made sense he really made sense made

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sense about morality and life in the

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outside world away from the neighborhood

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and the church we were in um and this

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was a person that I wanted to be like of

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course uh you know uh in order to be uh

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um a true cleric in that sense you do

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have to feel that yourself you have to

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be there's a commitment that uh you

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can't join it because you want to be

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like somebody else and it has to come

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from you um and I found all of this

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started to filter into a storytelling

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storytelling this particular priest did

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help try to balance um common sense in

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the world and also moral sense but the

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world we're in you know there were there

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was the bowy when they called the bums

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at the time living on the bowy were part

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of the world that I grew up in there was

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a criminal element along with the

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Working Class People who were just

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trying to stay alive and the older

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Sicilians neapolitans who had come to

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America who didn't speak English so so

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much was entangled I when went on in

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that neighborhood in and in my own life

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and it was so powerful to me the desire

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uh to tell these stories on film came

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from

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that and a lot of what I experienced in

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church for example the visual impact of

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the church uh

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the statues whether they were uh plaster

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statues or whether they were actually

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beautifully formed versions of some sort

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of sculpture uh devotional paintings

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Stations of the Cross the uh the light

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in the Basilica of St Patrick's old

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Cathedral the light during the daytime

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and how it shifted through the stained

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glass windows uh the tone and the mood

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of of the Basilica itself the nature of

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the rituals that was prev Vatican 2 uh

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all informed me of course and my

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approach to cinema as I began making

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movies the concept of morality

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uh right and wrong good and bad good and

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evil

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um and how Faith um uh how faith is a

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major element in leading a life that

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could be a moral life you know and how

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faith can also be something which

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contains a great deal of doubt and how

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uh there's a struggle for Faith and uh

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this is something that uh comes from

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that time that was planted at that time

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uh how does one live uh there the old

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story is in Mean Streets or a number of

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the other films if you're in a in a

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world that uh is a uh U on you're in the

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front lines of a world that is uh uh

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pretty tough and pretty negative and at

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times evil is all around you how do you

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try to live balanced not balanced but

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how you try to live moral

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life and so these these questions always

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uh uh have come back to me and this is

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what I think of all the

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time when I was young uh obviously was a

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very different world than it is today

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the movies were only seen in theaters

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before television um and due to many

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different reasons late 1940s and early

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50s including Health uh I found myself

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seeing a lot of movies uh my parents

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would take me to see and my brother and

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I loved the movies I saw um but there is

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no doubt that this world of movie

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making um where these uh miraculous

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images and stories came from um really

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felt very distant I it was something

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that U I could not imagine um I would

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ever be involved in the point is that um

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creativity with Cinema like any real art

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form is you really should know the old

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work that has gone before the Old

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Masters and I I do think uh you should

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know it

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meaning you should be exposed to it you

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should see and uh experience them as

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best you can do not look at them to

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learn from them look at them to see if

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it speaks to you if you're interested at

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all if you're curious you know it's not

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a matter of uh I'm going to learn

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something from watching of Max oold I'm

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going to learn something you know um uh

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it's a matter of uh your response to it

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you're aware that that is out there

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you're aware that that's part of the

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medium you're using uh and so in a way

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even if you reject it you have to know

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what you're rejecting I think um and

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it's to learn from the Old Masters hence

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you need conservation you need

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preservation and you need presentation

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of these films it's unfortunate that

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many of the new films will be seen on a

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a small screen uh um however we did see

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some great films on television which was

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a small screen at the time in the late

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in the 50s so somehow the power of films

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like like Citizen Kane burst through

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that 16inch black and white screen you

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know uh and when we saw it in a theater

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in a in a in a print that was being

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shown in um re-release in the late 50s

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uh it was another experience you know I

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wish I had seen it on the screen for the

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first time but didn't the effect seeing

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it on television was still very very

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strong enough to change my mind about

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how films are made and so you know it's

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really important to be aware of these

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things that have happened before and to

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maybe reinterpret them or reinterpret

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reinterpret to the point where you

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discard them even you have a 100 Years

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of Cinema more than a 100 years

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now to

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uh sort of I should say dive into in a

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way and find your way you know because

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in

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1960 we had basically the 19 some of the

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1930s all through the 40s and 50s of

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American films all the syum films were

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not seen if you did see ayum film by

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that point it was in 16 mm scratched up

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jerky motion and you wondered why

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anybody went to see these things you had

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some foreign films French and Italian

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mainly many British films um but nothing

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from Japan until early 50s

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uh and so there was a possibil German

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films to a certain extent from the 1920s

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again there were silent Russian films

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that were silent so whatever prints we

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got dup negatives they weren't the best

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but you were aware of these things and

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yet I think by

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19 1960 or 61 one could still say you

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could actually absorb the history of

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Cinema from all over the world because

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there wasn't that much to see you

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compared to now now you have everything

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and everything is on the same plane on

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the same time scale almost you can watch

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something from 1920 and then see

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something was made yesterday the people

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who made uh Cinema and created Cinema I

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should say in 19 1898 to 1903 to 1910 to

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196 to

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1925 it's a very different they were

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creating a language they were creating a

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new form a new art form and so we uh

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myself and my generation many you know

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even uh others at that time but

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primarily the generation that came out

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of the 50s and 60s that started making

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films in the 70s in um the cinema is

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that was made particularly in in in

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America um uh that we were um exposed to

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constantly is uh a block of time that uh

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is something very special to us no one

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really ever thought about um the

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continuity uh the preservation or the

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restoration or even just the

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preservation the conservation of this

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the these works that that influenced us

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so much not influenced but made up so

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much uh made up so much of our lives

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there was a transition from the old

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Studio system in the 60s to the early

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70s a transition from the old Studio

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system to the new Hollywood at that

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time but in the in the midst of it you

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don't know if there's going to be a new

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Hollywood you see we just knew that the

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studios were closing down they were

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selling off their props the who knows

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what was happening to their prints a lot

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of the prints are on nitrate stock a lot

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of the negatives in n they're just

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disintegrating all of this was the end

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of an era you see and so we started um

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uh trying to raise the consciousness of

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uh uh people who in power at the time to

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um preserve the films conserve the films

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uh ultimately particularly with the

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ancillary markets of video and that sort

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of thing uh they began to realize that

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there's a uh there's still an ability to

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these are assets are very important to

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them we knew they were more than assets

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they were a lifeblood to us

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[Music]

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when I went to myyu in the early 60s

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1960 I think it was it certainly wasn't

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the myyu we know today it was a

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Washington Square College which I

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enrolled in it was quite small and the

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introduction to film really wasn't a

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film school so to speak there were film

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department

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along with radio and television but the

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introduction to film was split into um

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the first two semesters that we call

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history of Motion Pictures One and Two

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um this along with all the other U

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required courses for the first two years

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of the school our teacher was a man

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named heg manujan of Armenian descent

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and from the first class he talked very

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very very fast almost like a drill

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instructor and he covered a lot of

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ground very quickly and I remember there

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sitting there just you know taking

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endless notes endless notes he'd show a

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film and if he thought a student was

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just there for you know uh to to waste

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time uh just take it easy and watch

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movies he would throw them out basically

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so he weeded people out and in our

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second year we took a um U an

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introductory kind of production course

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we had 16 millimeter cameras um and it

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was called Sight and Sound and we

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learned the very basic the rudiments of

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film making the very basic elements of

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lenses uh using 16 mm black and white uh

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film uh we did little exercises and by

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the end of the semester by the end of

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the year I think it was we were able to

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make a three to four minute film um

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based on what we had uh learned about

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the equipment and lighting and that sort

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of thing uh in in in those classes more

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people were weed it

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[Music]

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out what he focused on ultimately he was

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heavily influenced by the Italian

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neorealism and new way of of film making

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but he really focused on the individual

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voice the individual stories that you

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felt that you had to

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tell and he wouldn't let anyone direct

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unless they had written the film

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themselves separate from a non-fiction

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film I'm talking

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about and if you didn't write it

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yourself basically out of the class I

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remember one student telling him uh you

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know I want to direct and he says okay

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where's your script and he said well I'm

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I need a script I'm a director he said

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no go write your script otherwise you

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can't do it um he also we found

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ourselves at odds because I mean he

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hated melodrama he hated he said I don't

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want to see any of you kids going uh for

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a shot where somebody picks up a gun he

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was encouraging everyone to express

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themselves and protect that spark in

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themselves and not be influenced by

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other kinds of film making if they

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wanted that sort of thing they're going

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to television or going to another go to

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Los Angeles was was a different a

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different situation it was a little

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different for me because I grew up in a

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world where at times um people had

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access to guns and you know uh that was

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part of a part of life or a fact of life

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at times so uh melodrama turned out to

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be drama to a certain extent um and

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eventually that led to Mean Streets and

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other films I made but that was in the

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early 70s he was really developing

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individual voices that would make very

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very different kinds of film

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[Music]

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what he was finally getting to was the

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understanding or comprehension of Cinema

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itself never used that word uh you

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Motion Pictures you know you could say

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film cinema movies but he always Motion

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Pictures he was trying to get to the for

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us to understand what is the potential

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of the moving image and the cut so to

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speak um now uh what that means is um a

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kind of immersion in the process an

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immersion in the process which means not

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only the writing the working and the

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script and the page or or a paragraph

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could be a script of course but uh one

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uh would have to work it out in in the

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shooting with non-actors with actors or

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or um simply um um images uh without

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people in the frame it comes to the

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point of where you take the images and

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you're in and edit editing room quote

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unquote or computer these days or

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whatever and uh you put it together to

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tell a narrative now the narrative could

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be about the color uh

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blue it could be about color red you

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know it could be about music it could be

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music itself um the the nature of the

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actual moving image uh even if it's a

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still image has another quality which is

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different from a still photograph and a

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painting and a piece music so all of

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this is about

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understanding the value of um Cinema

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itself um and recreating it constantly

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recreating it constantly from yourself

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okay and that even deals with narrative

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Cinema so of course so what what he

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talked about was always the value of a

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shot a value of a shot and I didn't

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understand until we were in the editing

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process of u a number of us um we we'd

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shoot some

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with the intention of using it one way

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or in one section of the film let's say

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and then at some point when we really

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get into the editing of the picture and

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because of so many different um changes

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and so many different decisions that

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were made that you don't expect suddenly

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you found yourself using a shot that you

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thought was meant for one place and

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you're using it in another place and it

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makes sense and he's he I remember him

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becoming very excited when one or two of

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us did that he goes now you understand

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the value of a shot the shot is a value

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in and of itself no matter what you shot

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it for it may not matter it may not

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matter ultimately uh it takes on its own

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life it takes on its own um intention

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and it takes on its own Essence in a way

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and this is something that you can't

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teach you have to just do it but this

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was the excitement I saw

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him um and the excit the way I saw he

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was so excited when the student or uh

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one of us I forget who it was now when

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we stumbled on this he goes now you get

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what I've been talking about um and we

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mention yeah but uh Professor he said

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when truo said that you know when he was

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editing a film and it's going one way he

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would tend to want to cut it to go

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another way and he said I don't believe

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that he said you know that's part of the

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process he thinks he's doing that but

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he's going to a final he's going to a

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final Point somewhere in the um in the

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uh telling of the story whether it's uh

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Jose Jim and whether it's uh you know uh

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leus I mean it's going

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[Music]

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somewhere the essence of what he gave us

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with the essence the spark he was the

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inspiration he was the one to give me

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the confidence

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to become a filmmaker to come from this

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other world uh to come from this other

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world and suddenly be able to express

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myself with film that might even be

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shown in theaters at some point or might

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be shown to an audience you can't learn

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to make a film in school you can have

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the opportunity to make a film in school

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you have to learn it yourself great

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thing about the film school is the

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inspiration and the ability to give you

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the confidence uh if you have something

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that you really feel uh passionate about

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and I think that's the greatest thing

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Any teacher or any guide could give a

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student that is the confidence and the

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inspiration to make you think well you

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know it's crazy but maybe I can do it

1
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[Music]

2
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I don't think there's

3
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anything that could

4
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be that could be deemed a a process

5
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which covers all the bases so to speak I

6
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mean look yes there's a process in order

7
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to uh start shooting you have to put the

8
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camera on the the some sort of device or

9
00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:32,680
you want to handhold it you have to make

10
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a choice there there are some basic

11
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:38,360
things um uh that are about more

12
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logistical than anything else uh the use

13
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of equipment knowing what equipment

14
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could do knowing which tool to use um

15
00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,600
but natural process you know there are

16
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many people who just work it out there

17
00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:52,640
are many people who kind of write as

18
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they go along um the script for viu in

19
00:00:56,719 --> 00:00:59,440
Italia um Voyage Through Italy by

20
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rosellini was fra I saw it framed on a

21
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wall in an apartment in Rome it was one

22
00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,360
page paragraph not saying everybody does

23
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that phini when he would um shoot I was

24
00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,880
on a set a number of times but 1980 81

25
00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,799
uh doing city of women um he had five

26
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different sets uh in on the same stage

27
00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:21,920
and there was constant talking and

28
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shouting and yelling and he was running

29
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up and down and people laughing people

30
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arguing in the meantime he was

31
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shooting he was shooting I remember

32
00:01:29,960 --> 00:01:31,799
remember people saying what's going on

33
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well he's shooting over here and one it

34
00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:35,119
was a very different way of shooting of

35
00:01:35,119 --> 00:01:37,520
course in Italy they don't use SN sound

36
00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,040
so uh the sets are everybody's used to

37
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speak talking loudly you know um and as

38
00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:45,439
he was shooting we were guests on the

39
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set he would come over and talk to us

40
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and you go back to the shot so it's a

41
00:01:48,759 --> 00:01:51,119
very different way of of

42
00:01:51,119 --> 00:01:54,280
um working a very different process

43
00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,680
there are filmmakers uh who are more uh

44
00:01:57,680 --> 00:01:59,960
there are filmmakers who have an editor

45
00:01:59,960 --> 00:02:02,439
they trust um who knows their style who

46
00:02:02,439 --> 00:02:03,640
knows who they are and has worked with

47
00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:05,079
them a long time editing while they're

48
00:02:05,079 --> 00:02:07,079
shooting the film could be put together

49
00:02:07,079 --> 00:02:08,720
two weeks after the pictures finish uh

50
00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:09,720
wrapping

51
00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,879
shooting um I like to wait until I

52
00:02:13,879 --> 00:02:16,599
finish shooting and work with my editor

53
00:02:16,599 --> 00:02:20,680
you know um and so um what I'm saying is

54
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,920
that there is no process and when people

55
00:02:23,920 --> 00:02:25,480
talk to you about a process you might as

56
00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,319
well open a textbook a textbook give you

57
00:02:27,319 --> 00:02:29,959
some basic facts Logistics facts that

58
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sort of thing but uh whether good or bad

59
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it's

60
00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:38,560
art uh meaning the quality of it I don't

61
00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:40,599
know it depends on the person the

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quality of your own work I don't know

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you just know you have to do it so um in

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that doing of it you

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are making judgments whether the quality

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of the judgment is something that's

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going to last and mean something to

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people 50 years from now who knows you

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know do you feel feel good about it very

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often people feel terrible about some of

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it and it's quite good to many people so

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there really is no process I mean yes to

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a certain extent it would be good to

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talk to the costume person uh before

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shooting okay I mean it's common common

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sense preparation seems to be good

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especially for narrative Cinema that

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sort of thing seems to be which means

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you should talk to your director

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photography talk to your locations

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people uh describe what you want um this

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is aside from working with writers or

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writing it yourself working with the

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actors all of this sort of thing is is a

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common sense I think the actual

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Logistics uh and uh the rubic cube of

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making a film is something that you may

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need guidance with people who are real

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pros at it I mean uh for example uh

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Michael Ball house when we were doing

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Last Temptation Of Christ I had

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um worked on the uh uh we worked on the

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the schedule and and uh all of this sort

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of thing and we had it ready the first

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scene in the script was going to be the

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first thing we shot and um I was all

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ready to do it and a week and a half or

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two weeks before shooting Michael came

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to me and said look instead of the first

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scene we should go to the there's a

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scene with a crucifixion of a a guy who

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was called a zealot he said we should

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shoot that first it's daylight the light

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will be right we get three days of

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daylight out of the way and then we go

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indoors and for whatever reasons I it

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was made clear to me that that was the

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most sensible way of going because of

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budget and

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schedule and I wanted the luxury of

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continuity but I couldn't have it and so

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this is what I mean about uh there is no

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process so um you know um there's a

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process in that in that you must rely on

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those who know how to get the things

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done um

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what those things are come from you and

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uh is it practical or not you know is it

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practical for the amount of money you

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have the amount of days you have the

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people you're working with that sort of

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thing and if it's not how could they get

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close enough to what you'd like you

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[Music]

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know a life of a film is perceived

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differently from different filmmakers

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you know um for me it means uh allowing

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uh the film to have its own life at

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times and to um be able to take the

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chances to burst the seams of the

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picture and for us to take advantage of

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the um uh the possibility of special

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things that would happen within the

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scene with the actors with the camera

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with the light all of this um you know

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uh there are many films that have been

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made and many continue to be made where

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in a sense they're almost like director

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free they're like a succession of line

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readings in a sense with good script

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really good actors and you can enjoy it

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but I don't feel it's Cinema I don't

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feel that the it's a film somehow

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because here's the thing you have to

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stay open you have to stay open to

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what's

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happening right in front of you around

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you at every single

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moment as you envision a scene as you

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work on the scene with the crew and with

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the with the cast um

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[Music]

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you design it in your head of course you

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you know even the lenses you want to use

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in some cases you design the camera

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moves the camera moves mean something we

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hope uh the U the cuts uh uh could be

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designed in such a way as to an editing

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pattern you know uh you work with the

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production designer the custom designer

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and then with of course the art director

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and um uh custom designer on the set and

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then with the actors and you shoot it

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and something completely unexpected that

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happens it adds new value to the scene

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in the case of Good Fellas for example

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uh the third night of shooting we we

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because of schedule problems we had to

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shoot this really important scene where

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character of stacks uh played by Sam

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Jackson uh gets assassinated by Joe

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pes's character and he had um his friend

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with him uh Frank and uh we did all in

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one take um and it was before digital so

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there were Prosthetics and all kinds of

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it was very complicated to do but um

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when Joe came in with Frank uh said a

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lot of stacks and said maybe some coffee

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will you he told Frank so Frank's making

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the coffee come on Frankie make coffee

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get make

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coffee thought you had one of your

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[ __ ] in here yeah I did where the

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[ __ ] is

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he so he's got these hot books around 6

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something Joe comes around in the frame

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around and finally surprises every for

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your own [ __ ]

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funeral and Frank comes out with the

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coffee pot looking he just took the

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coffee pot with him the [ __ ] you look at

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so Joe told him come on make that coffee

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to go let's go they actually start to

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leave the room and Frank is Walking with

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the coffee potties no it's a joke the

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[ __ ] you doing it's a joke a joke put

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the [ __ ] pot down you got to take the

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coffee and so I began to get a sense of

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the horrifying

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humor uh and uh um the dark humor of the

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picture and the story and and the

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lifestyle of uh uh making jokes in

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circumstances like this and uh the

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Psychopathology of it and um this is

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really coming out of uh uh working with

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the actors and uh uh it happened

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repeatedly throughout that film uh or in

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the editing for example where you

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takeing good Fellas where um

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Mory keeps

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asking Jimmy to get his money for him

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and they're in a bar it's later in the

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picture and you begin to hear uh

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Sunshine of Your Love cream and at that

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point you see Jimmy played by Robert

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dairo looking around and checking out

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each one in the bar and realizing to

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himself that why should he have to share

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the the

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loot why don't he just kill them all you

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know but I had made a note that we move

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in on him we shoot it at 36 frames a

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second or 32 frames a second and when we

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were syncing up the music for this scene

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a guitar riff uh hit right at the moment

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that Bob's eyes flared and we realized

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this was it this was the moment we were

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looking

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for it was a combination of

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planning and the imagination on the page

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32 to 36 frames a second second a camera

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move

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in and the editing of the picture few

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months later using that piece of

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[Music]

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music then even sometimes the surprises

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in the mix like en Raging Bull or Frank

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Warner we kept saying there's so many

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sounds of punches and H these fight

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scenes and there was one big moment I

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think Jake uh swings his arm into frame

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and glove smashes into the head of the

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the other fighter knocks him out

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whatever we were sitting there saying

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it's just how many more ways could we uh

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Express the sounds of gloves slamming

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against flesh or whatever or the speed

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of the glove going right past you uh

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because

250
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um a lot of the sound effects in those

251
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scenes in the ring were meant to be just

252
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as the the the visuals Were Meant To Be

253
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impressions of how Jake saw it in the

254
00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:08,480
ring not from people outside the ring

255
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but how you uh perceive reality um after

256
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being punched or throwing punches and

257
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losing your breath and trying to stay in

258
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shape and trying to stay on your feet uh

259
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and so everything was twisted and turned

260
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in a way so Frank was thinking Frank was

261
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thinking he said what if we take out the

262
00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:33,079
sound I said yeah let's do that

263
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[Music]

264
00:11:43,860 --> 00:11:47,119
[Music]

265
00:11:51,410 --> 00:11:59,669
[Music]

266
00:12:16,839 --> 00:12:18,839
and sure enough that's how it worked out

267
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but again it was created there in the

268
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mix but all of was working together and

269
00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:24,240
so the point is Jo always really have to

270
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stay alive to what's happening in front

271
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of you right in front of you and you

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could have the some in a negative way

273
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,320
preconceived ideas but as long as the

274
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philosophy of the idea still um uh is

275
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still retained you could change the

276
00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:42,199
aspects of it you could change um the um

277
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Elements which create the concept of the

278
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shot um and so you know I I think um the

279
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picture itself takes over in a way

1
00:00:03,130 --> 00:00:13,240
[Music]

2
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I always found that that going to see a

3
00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:18,320
film and studying it at the moment as

4
00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:19,400
you're watching it for the first time it

5
00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,000
doesn't work um you have to let the film

6
00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,480
work on you or not then if you're hit by

7
00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:26,279
certain things if you know you go there

8
00:00:26,279 --> 00:00:29,039
and you you go back and you try to find

9
00:00:29,039 --> 00:00:31,480
very often if few imagine a sequence or

10
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a scene or two that's edited a certain

11
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way you find that the camera wasn't that

12
00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:37,239
close but it appeared that close in your

13
00:00:37,239 --> 00:00:39,800
memory that's interesting why well may

14
00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:41,160
have been use sound effect may have been

15
00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:44,360
use of a cut you see or a camera move

16
00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,199
that was imperceptible at first so uh

17
00:00:48,199 --> 00:00:50,199
there was a almost like a memorization

18
00:00:50,199 --> 00:00:51,800
of I guess it was almost like a

19
00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:57,440
photographic memory of images editing um

20
00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,960
sequences in the film um scenes shots

21
00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:03,640
and so I would draw upon that don't

22
00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:05,920
forget there was really no way of seeing

23
00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:07,159
these things unless it was shown on

24
00:01:07,159 --> 00:01:10,799
television again arbitrarily or it was

25
00:01:10,799 --> 00:01:11,960
playing in a theater somewhere and you

26
00:01:11,960 --> 00:01:14,960
had to go to find that theater you know

27
00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:18,119
um and so you had to do it for memory uh

28
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whether it was the uh Marshall's badge

29
00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:25,840
on the dirt ground um against the boot

30
00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,799
of Gary Cooper at the end of high noon

31
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or you know um part of the Chariot race

32
00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:33,720
in benur uh you had to go and see the

33
00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:35,560
film again you can make little drawings

34
00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:37,200
try to I used to try to draw my own

35
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,560
versions of these things from memory you

36
00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,720
know and so um I remember seeing the

37
00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,600
small back room of Paul pressburger

38
00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:49,320
film um on television in an afternoon

39
00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,399
one day I think in the mid mid early to

40
00:01:52,399 --> 00:01:56,439
mid-50s and I remembered the mood of

41
00:01:56,439 --> 00:01:58,920
this this film was a very strange film I

42
00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:00,920
recall very very clearly the opening

43
00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,520
title sequence um particularly uh

44
00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,759
there's a shot of traffic light changing

45
00:02:07,759 --> 00:02:09,800
from red to Green of course it's a black

46
00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:11,319
and white film but you do get the

47
00:02:11,319 --> 00:02:13,879
impression it's the angle of of the the

48
00:02:13,879 --> 00:02:16,640
traffic light and it's the rain that's

49
00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:18,519
in the frame around it there's something

50
00:02:18,519 --> 00:02:20,720
about that shot that made it very

51
00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,440
powerful and memorable they only saw it

52
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once and also through the windshield as

53
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the person is driving there Michael Goff

54
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I think is driving in the beginning and

55
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through the windshield it's the London

56
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during the war everything is dark and

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the windshield is the windsh wipers are

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wiping away this heavy rain and you're

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looking through and those two images

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became really key images for taxi

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driver there's another shot in there too

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in Taxi Driver that he goes to buy guns

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um this is a spe a specific reference

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for example but he goes to buy guns from

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uh Andy and the the hotel room and he

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picks up one of the guns he goes to the

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window and the gun is pointed at two or

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three women outside I think with an

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umbrella but that's placed on a dolly or

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a track and it tracks

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over and there was always something I

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loved in this King vor's film um

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Northwest Passage there's an attack by

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the uh Native Americans uh against the

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fort and at one point he has somebody

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with a rifle camera's shooting over that

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person with the rifle and you see the

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native running in the background and the

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man is put on a track a

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dolly and the actor and he's the camera

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just tracks with him fires a gun running

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along tracking along in the same

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direction as the uh the native was

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running so we tried the similar thing

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that was directly and I started putting

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them um uh Travis onad at times although

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we did it in uh in Mean Streets too but

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not particularly with the not as

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specific as with the gun from Northwest

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[Music]

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Passage when we started making films we

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were uh very conscious of cinema around

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us particularly the older Hollywood

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Cinema too so um this was a time when

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you could actually make reference to

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films that people considered just quote

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entertainment unquote um and there were

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people around the world France and

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England Italy other places uh Japan who

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knew what you were talking about and so

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we started making references and this

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was our generation doing that um you

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know again the French filmmaker Jean luk

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odar making a reference directly to

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Humphrey Bogart in U Abu sufla

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breathless where Bel Mond looks at an

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image of Bogart I think from uh the

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harder they fall his last film and he

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does the the gesture that Bogart always

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was known for with his thum

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and says bogy I think

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um there was

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uh references to Hawks films references

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to Hitchcock constantly in those

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films my first kind of a feature is

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Who's That Knocking on my door which is

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kind of a I look at as kind of a

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juvenalia as kind of like a we were

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trying things took about three or four

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years to make over time trying to find

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how to tell a story without telling a

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straight narrative we used um references

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a to westerns in the film as a uh

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starting point for conversations uh they

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were like testing each other and so a

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reference particularly to the Searchers

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which everyone knows now to a certain

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extent uh but at that time the Searchers

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was not considered a very good film um

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it was like a franchise picture for

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example it was always usually a John

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Ford film Hitchcock had a film a year so

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vertigo was was uh ignored um was just

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another Hitchcock film was a little uh

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murky they felt the audience and uh I

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should say the critics more but at the

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age of 13 and 14 the searches was

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something that was really important to

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us um when we saw it um that

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reflected the world we were in the

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America that we knew or that we were

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experiencing at that time um and the

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portense of the character of Ethan

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Edwards and so and the beauty of the

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film The Poetry the imagery and the

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language we use that as a basis to start

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conversations in the movie and that sort

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of thing and particularly you're dealing

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with a film that

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had that took place in lower e side and

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people who certainly wouldn't even have

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ever seen a horse except for one of the

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two uh policemen on horses on uh on

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Prince Street Maybe

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[Music]

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my suggestion would be if you're

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starting to make a film or you want to

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express yourself on some sort of uh

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visual narrative uh I don't know if you

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have to uh be conscious of your style

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you know I mean you can use a sense

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of an aspect of some some style that you

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think you might have as a but be be be

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aware that it might um reveal itself to

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be something else and that's what's more

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important uh and that's the essential of

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who you are and what you're trying to

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say and how you're expressing it you're

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using the tools to express it uh because

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ultimately if to take away all the

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equipment you still have to be able to

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tell the story can't talk about my own

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style I don't know what I don't know

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what that is really so um other people

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could do it if they want but I I don't

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know how to so I'm trying to make the

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pictures uh feel the need at times to

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really make these pictures for whatever

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that U whatever that

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means to me it means that you

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can't it means that you it's hard for

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you to to continue your daily life

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unless you work on this particular story

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or um work out making a film so to

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speak so I'm just making the pictures

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telling the

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stories trying to capture the emotions

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uh the ideas and really try to provoke

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to the best of my ability what's left of

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uh uh my time and what's left of uh the

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capacity

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for my my brain basically um going

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further into the mystery of film

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[Music]

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making we now agree that verbal literacy

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is necessary and we take that for

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granted but a couple of thousand years

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ago

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Socrates actually disagreed his argument

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was almost uh the very same identical to

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the arguments of people today who object

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to the internet or to or the people back

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in the 60s and 70s who warned about uh

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the evils of

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Television Socrates worried that writing

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and reading would actually lead to not

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truly knowing it he believed that if

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people would have stopped memorizing and

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start writing and reading they'd be in

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danger of cultivating the appearance of

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wisdom as opposed to the real thing he

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was afraid that reading it would take

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away the actual knowledge and the

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understanding of the text so the same

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kinds of questions still come up around

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moving images they're too literal they

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leave nothing to the imagination and

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they're inferior to the written

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word so now if you're taking this class

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um I'm going to take it for granted that

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you don't agree with those

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ideas but if you're going to make films

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I promise you that you're going to

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encounter them because words and images

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have a common source so when you look at

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ancient writing you see that words and

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images are almost indistinguishable in

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fact words are images they're symbols

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written Chinese and Japanese so actually

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look like pictographic

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languages the written word is not

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superior to the moving

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image they are both ways they are both

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modes of communication and expression of

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equal value so to me when people talk

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about visual

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literacy I think that in the end there's

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just literacy period the most important

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thing is to understand the difference

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between certain images or to be more

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precise certain sequences of images some

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are meant to sell something some are

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meant to just entertain and some are

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meant to you know inform and some and

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this is what we're talking about here

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are meant to tell stories and in so

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doing

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pursue and discover something surprising

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and

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mysterious not all images are there to

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be you know eaten consumed like fast

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food and forgotten that's important to

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remember when're not mass manufacturers

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we're trying to be

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[Music]

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filmmakers the world of movie making

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where these remarkable images came from

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these stories and the worlds they

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depicted this felt very very distant I

106
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mean if I even I did have the dreams of

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maybe putting something together like

108
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what would become a movie but these were

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purely dreams there was no way to to um

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actually implement this in any way and

111
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no way we really thought that such a

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thing could happen to us to be able to

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make a film it was like a a place that

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you had to uh conquer in a way you had

115
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to overtake and be able to do your own

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thing um so the next best thing I was

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able to do since it was working class

118
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family didn't have cameras and that sort

119
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of thing was too expensive so I was able

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to um the only way I can express this

121
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desire this impulse I should say was to

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draw imaginary movies in a small small

123
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room that I was in in the uh tenaments

124
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uh living downtown on Elizabeth Street

125
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um and uh these were different genres um

126
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some were based on television shows I

127
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saw uh some were watercolored some were

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just uh black and white with ebony

129
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pencil some were even sepia a lot of

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those don't exist what does exist now as

131
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the beginnings of a ancient Roman epic

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which I never finished which allowed me

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to play with aspect ratios or what I now

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know as an aspect ratio in 65 mm or 70

135
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mm aspect ratio and so this was a way of

136
00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,120
trying to tell the stories from frame to

137
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frame uh I'd show it to a few friends um

138
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but they felt that they were just Stills

139
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drawings and I explained to them that in

140
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between the frames that were drawn there

141
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was movement or you have to imagine the

142
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movement see the only way I could try to

143
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come up with the visual narrative or

144
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make a movie quote unquote was to draw

145
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these pictures within frames and uh

146
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sometimes it be a strip of um paper and

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maybe divide into three frames and the

148
00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,840
um difference between each frame

149
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sometimes I found myself editing

150
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telling the story with medium shots

151
00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:34,880
closeups wide shots that sort of thing

152
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very rarely were the frames from frame

153
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one to two or from two to three wide

154
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shots simply wide shots sort of like in

155
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the the first films that were made I was

156
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just finding my way based upon what I

157
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saw in the movie theater and on

158
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television and so um in some cases the

159
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frames would be cuts from one to the

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other in others there would be frames

161
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which represented three or four parts of

162
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the same shot I imagine camera movement

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and I also imagine that when the cuts

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were made that there was some sort of

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movement in the film in a way and one

166
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would have to use your imagination so

167
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when I was able to start to actually put

168
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a film

169
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together the only thing I could uh uh

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relate to really was to go back to those

171
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drawings and uh design the whole picture

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on paper which is what I did in my first

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short films and pretty much subsequently

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most of the film films I made on a

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practical level

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um it gives you an idea of exactly what

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you want to get uh that particular day

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of shooting uh or for the entire

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schedule of the picture so that you can

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utilize the time properly you don't make

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it up as you go along on set and waste

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that time and uh um energy of everyone

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um and money so uh it was meant as a uh

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not just a blueprint but actual an

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actualization of the shots I wanted to

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get exactly how they

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[Music]

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go I think the documentaries I've been

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trying to do over the years or the

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non-fiction films are are uh uh really

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for me um projects that um have no rules

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in a sense and if they have no rules it

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gets tougher you know so uh what that

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means it's they're right places for

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experimenting or uh finding another way

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to tell a story whether it's through a

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piece of music or whether the editing

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itself becomes music uh meaning a a

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rhythm and

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pace

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and uh telling stories elliptically I

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tend to want to continue making these

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non-fiction films because they I'd hoped

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or a Time

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feel that should inform the narrative

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structure of the fictional films I make

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um and there's a freedom in making these

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documentaries or these music films so to

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speak there's a freedom of form uh that

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um loosens me up in a way everything's

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included in the shooting of it if you

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are shooting certain scenes sometimes

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it's the footage that already exists um

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the um the shooting of it and

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particularly in the editing there is no

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such thing as editing it's writing

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writing editing you're making the film

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there in that room you know and so uh

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you can go many different ways it's

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infinite and so it's really a challenge

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as they say it's also true with the

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documentary I made about my parents

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called Italian American in fact I

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learned a lot from that by letting them

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uh um letting them uh exist I should say

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within the frame and tell the

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stories without intercutting or U

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finding a obvious cinematic techniques

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to push time forward or backwards didn't

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matter jump Cuts putting 12 frames of

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black leader slugs in the middle of a

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story just to get to another Point um

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and just holding on the person really

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was something was a great lesson and the

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pictures I've made that are set within

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the world where I grew up or related to

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that world like Mean Streets or Raging

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Bull Good Fellas so and so I I think for

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example one aspect of it that's really

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important is the body language is very

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important the way that people relate to

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each other physically I suppose it was

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that uh fact which uh let it take uh

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center stage and didn't complicate it

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with cutting or anything superficially

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cinematic um in the creation of certain

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kinds of stories uh in many cases it's

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when to hold the shot when to let the

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people speak when to just watch them you

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know uh and not move the camera and not

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cut you find what's there and that in a

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sense they inhabit the

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[Music]

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film the use of voice over is very

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important to me uh it was just a natural

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element in making movies I I appreciated

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so much over the years seeing films with

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voice over particularly uh kind hearts

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and

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carinet with that U wonderfully

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restrained humor of the voiceover the

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irony which uh put me in the mind

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thereof so to speak of using ironic

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voice

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over in Good Fellas the inherent humor

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in some of the the voice over in that

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film comes is sparked from kind hearts

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and coronets or

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uh other films at the time particularly

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there was also a wonderful use of voice

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over in shoot the piano player truo and

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Jules and Jim I like that very much it

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goes back and forth through time and

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space building up the relationship of

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the two men and their friends in that

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world the world of the uh Left Bank at

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that time um and for me yes it has a lot

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of

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exposition meaning explaining what

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you're seeing but somehow the words

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don't

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necessarily the words don't are not

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needed to fully explain it what you're

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seeing in other words the narration

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itself is not expository in a dull sense

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in a didactic way it somehow

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expresses the joy and uh the warmth and

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the love between these characters and

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also the freewheeling aspect of this

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kind of thinking you know this life that

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they're living or the life they' like to

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live too and so I thought what about

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what about a whole movie that way and

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that became Good Fellas and so there was

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a spark there Barry Lyon is another good

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example of VoiceOver um the language of

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the voiceover in that in that particular

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film um the language itself and so that

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led to of course the use of the

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voiceover in Age of Innocence that when

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we were about to make the film uh there

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were those who were in the production

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who turned to me and said who's

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talking I didn't realize people took it

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that literally who's talking the

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Storyteller I don't

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know person telling you the story or the

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person living the

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story um and so I didn't I never took it

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that literal in many cases I I believe

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so Age of Innocence um we had the

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opportunity there to play with voice

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over from the book bth Warden using her

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language very much the same way let's

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not the same way but very much inspired

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by the use of language in Barry Lyon and

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a number of other films in voiceover the

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whole point is that when I when I found

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narration the use of narration in voice

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over as a part the storytelling uh as

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natural to me the very first film I made

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the very short film very first short

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film I made covered with voice over um

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it's an element of the storytelling in

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film not a literary

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device in the case of Age of Innocence

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we're able to take advantage of the

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literary uh because we could take the

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voiceover directly from what was written

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in the book in the novel uh byth Wharton

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but for me it was one of the C cinematic

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elements in the film not a literary

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element at all and not for something to

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uh just uh give you Exposition as to

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what's happening in the film

1
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[Music]

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I was able to get my hands on an 8mm

3
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camera at one point A friend of mine had

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it and I shot out a little uh silly film

5
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um on the rooftops of the Lower East

6
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Side back I think in 1962 or so um but

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the very idea of

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uh making a film a narrative film even

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though I was aware of all the excitement

10
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around me and maybe because of that too

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the excitement of the American

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Underground Cinema the American

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avanguard European avanguard all these

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things were developing um and were being

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available now that Cinema could be

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anything Cinema was anything you make it

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all these things

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um fed the desire to make a narrative

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film I wanted to make a narrative film

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um

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and when I finally saw the film Shadows

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by John cetes I think it was 1959 or

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1960 um what what it proved to us was

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that if you had a desire to tell a story

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as strongly as he had and you were able

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to break away or not even be encumbered

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should I say not be encumbered by uh a u

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Studio system a way of the industry way

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of making a film with very big crew very

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very heavy equipment and that was that

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was that was

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stopping the creative impulse in a way

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so what happened was that there was very

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lightweight equipment this enabled uh

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the filmmakers like cetes like Shirley

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Clark like many others to be able to

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just open up the field and um shoot

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almost as if you have today for example

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uh an iPhone would be a a similar thing

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and so these became truly truly uh

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Independent films you realize there

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would no more excuses if they were able

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to make a film this way in New York in

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16 mimer the camera didn't have a tripod

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and that sort of thing very very little

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lighting maybe none there's no excuse

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now you have to be able to do it but the

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only thing you need and this is the most

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important thing is the spark and the

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desire and the passion to to say

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something utilizing film it turns out

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that

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where and it's some it's difficult to uh

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to to sort of try to say Encompass all

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of this but there are many different

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aspects different kinds of films that I

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was inspired by

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cabetes work within the scenes with the

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people who happen to be actors but with

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the people um gave it a sense of

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authenticity and life that uh it felt

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like it was going to live off the screen

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the screen couldn't inhabit it just

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couldn't hold it but the cavetti thing

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was to explore that life and push it to

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the

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edge and still try to keep um if you're

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so inclined a particular narrative in

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story line and see if I can combine it

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all it wasn't intentional that way but

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that's what I

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[Music]

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felt because of the uh the extraordinary

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technology around us at this point I

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mean they people talk about the the the

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fact that anyone can make a film it's

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true anyone can express themselves in

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visual images but what's happening U one

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has to remember is that technology is a

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tool um the same principles apply which

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is uh your your need to tell that story

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your need to go through the process and

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you happen to be using uh uh digital as

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opposed to film or or an iPhone I have

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no idea but the key thing is that the

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technology does not dictate the art the

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art dictates the technology the art

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comes first and you use the technology

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for the art whatever that art may be you

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know and I think there's a misconception

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today that uh because of the equipment

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um the equipment does it easily done you

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can press a button and you have

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different sorts of uh visual effects um

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I learned this back with the steady cam

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back doing raging

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I had designed fight sequences in the

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film nine of them in very very specific

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ways so much so that they were all drawn

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images I have storyboards for everything

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and designs and outlines and diagrams of

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the choreography of the fights

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themselves and myself and a

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cinematographer worked out the camera

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moves that is the physical actual use of

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the equipment at that time with no video

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assist none of that sort of thing we

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have today so for my uh Director of

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Photography Chapman it did take longer

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than we thought to create these images

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that you see in those fight scenes

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because of the nature of the equipment

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and it which means that it took we had

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planned five weeks to shoot the fight

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scenes it took 10 um there was one fight

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scene that I thought we would um do with

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this new instrument called the steady

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Cam and we started shooting it I did not

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design the shots I just used the sense

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of the element that I thought the steady

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cam would give me um and after shooting

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for a day I realized there is no way of

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getting around the design in other words

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the technology of this beautiful

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instrument was not going to direct the

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film for

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me something else was happening and I

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scrapped it all and reshot it and of

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course used the study cam for the long

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takes um that I uh that are in the film

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and then eventually uh understood the uh

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nature of it um to the point where we

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were able to do that long take for

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example in Good Fellas which goes into

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the Copa Cabana um but I had relied on

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the um this new technology to create um

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to create a a certain aspect of Cinema

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which I which was still mysterious to me

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and I realized at that point that I

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still had to be there you know it wasn't

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going to do it for me um I wanted to see

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what that equipment gives me but I still

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have to direct the equipment and know

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what the equipment is capable of and

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what I can use it for so this is a very

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important

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[Music]

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point the issue of Technology carries

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over particularly into the

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post-production too in the editing

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itself of a film um or of a a visual

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narrative so to speak um in uh the days

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when we first started of course it was a

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separate track and picture um if one

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wanted to make a dissolve or see a call

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for a dissolve or call for any special

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effect it had to do temp so to speak it

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had to go to a lab uh very often we

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didn't see these dissolves until the

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film was finished um but in this case

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what's happening now is that there uh

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it's kind of exciting because you can

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see these different elements um uh uh

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pretty much immediately uh with the

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computer editing many different effects

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can be seen and experienced right away

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uh so that you could you could uh react

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immediately to it yet there is a

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drawback and that is is the immediate

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nature of it very often I found that

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once we made the switch from editing in

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35mm to um computer I found that uh

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discussing how to make a change in a

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scene uh what we were used to would take

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maybe 25 30 minutes or so as they're

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working on that change splicing film uh

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uh cutting uh sinking up or whatever

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they were doing um You' think about it

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possibly or at least if you weren't

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thinking about it you were in the

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presence of the change in a sense you

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were experiencing the travel in a way uh

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from one version to the other um and at

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a certain point when we started using

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the computer I'd asked for a change say

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why don't we try this why don't we try

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that and within um two to three minutes

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it was done and so I had to learn um to

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do without that process a very valuable

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process of another way of film making of

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waiting of waiting

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and absorbing what you're doing this was

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something else and it threw me for quite

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a while because it was immediate uh and

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almost at a certain point because one's

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able one is able to do this with the

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technology there may be too many choices

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and what I began to understand is that

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one has to steal yourself against all

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these choices somehow and learn how to

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uh uh how should I put it um tame them

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in a way and that the only way to do

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that is to keep focused on what you want

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to say you see um and so uh the

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extraneous cutting away the extraneous

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sometimes it works for me sometimes it

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doesn't but it is a

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different um it's a different medium

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this way in terms of cutting that

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quickly um and having everything at your

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fingertips at this point um I always

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think it's interesting because if you

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have everything at your fingertips and

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in such rate of speed then you really

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are committed to the essence of what

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you're doing you know there's no excuse

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to say I've got to wait for this I've

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got to wait for that you really have to

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know what you're doing even more so

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[Music]

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I don't think there's anything more

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inherently cinematic about one way of

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life versus another um if you're

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inclined towards Cinema then you see

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what is Cinematic within that way of

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life I mean everything is Cinematic all

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of life is Cinematic depends on how you

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perceive it I can only talk about my own

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life I mean my own case what I know I

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grew up in a certain part of the world

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and because I had very particular place

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uh and because I had uh asthma from the

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age of three on uh I observed a lot I

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wasn't allowed to participate in uh

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anything uh that was uh OV exciting in

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terms of uh physical activity uh Sports

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and that sort of thing so I observed a

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lot and I found I was absorbing it

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really and then later you know I found I

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was interpreting it and translating it I

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think and uh trying to transmit or

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express it find different ways to tell

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stories about things that I observed or

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uh was immersed in around me whether it

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was outside the uh the the the apartment

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or or in the family and you know what I

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observed and absorbed at home out in the

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street as I said in the church these are

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things that form me just as the very

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different worlds in which say Michael

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Powell or St kuber or Don seagull grew

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up formed them so I can only speak from

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that

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[Music]

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world film Mak that I tried to do

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particularly when I first started out

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was stories that came from my own

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experience or uh subject matters that

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interested me only or solely I should

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say and um um that slowly developed into

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other projects or stories scripts even

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that um um I was able to work with uh uh

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interests or concepts from other writers

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but um primarily uh I really the the

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story has to come from me or at least be

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I'm interested in this particular

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character idea in some cases actors in

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the case of Nick pedi for example uh he

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wrote that wonderful book wise guy which

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became Good Fellas and you know he has

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such a uh the book itself spoke to me

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immediately um and uh the structure of

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the book too I found a way to uh uh

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along with Nick to be able to uh pull

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together uh a representation of that

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world that um was depicted in the book

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but also in my own from my own

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experience because Nick has an

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extraordinary knowledge of U the world

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he's chronicling but beyond that it's

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not just a very dry uh it's not a very

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dry uh how put a systematic uh didactic

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way of talking about that world or

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depicting that world war or uh

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representing that world he has a a

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philosophical point of view uh with a

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great sense of humor and irony about it

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uh

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about

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that part of us or that part of human

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nature which is imminently uh for many

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people corruptible um and the thinking

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that goes into that and how uh one step

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leads to another and eventually is a

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complete

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um complete chain of events a disastrous

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chain of events and so he has this point

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of view about it uh and a way of

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presenting it and so we would have a

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great deal of enjoyment working on

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[Music]

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that Taxi Driver really the script was

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very so strong uh and was a situation

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where

86
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Paul who uh whom with whom I've worked

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for many times since then um he has

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something else besides his powerful

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sense of structure um this very strong

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understanding of loneliness retribution

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but really just the

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philosophy and a theological point of

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view that I certainly couldn't

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verbalize at that time reading the

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script but created a

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a an Impulse to make the picture pict to

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to and what I mean by make the picture

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that film was not makeable it was not

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doable even then and so uh we tried for

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a number of years um and finally through

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a series of circumstances and uh very

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very low budget we were able to pull it

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together but it had became a passion

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project when something happens like that

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it's a script that you did not write

106
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then it has to have a point of view it

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has to have more than a point of view it

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has to have the the theme itself has to

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be something that's very close to you my

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case I keep looking at questions

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of sin or the concept of sin good and

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evil sin and Redemption weakness and

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strength from new angles and New

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Perspectives if I can and exploring it

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constantly which is really part of you

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know The Human Condition the other way I

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could answer the question is to say that

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U the moral issues for somebody like uh

119
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Harvey Kel's character Charlie in main

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streets I mean you know ultimately what

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is he doing this for why is he

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committing himself to Johnny Boy how far

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is he really prepared to go for his

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friend am I My Brother's Keeper are we

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our Brother's Keeper um am I really

126
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Charlie saying am I really helping him

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at all or is it more for me is more

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helping Charlie in a way uh and these

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things come from directly from my own

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life and experiencing things like that

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mean you don't in a sense um in the case

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of Charlie he talks about a religious

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concept Catholic concept of Penance but

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you know you don't get to choose the

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Penance that's the thing he

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misunderstands so when the opportunity

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arises it arises I don't think when I

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I've ever set out to say I'm going to

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make a film with this moral theme um

140
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maybe I did uh but not in those words uh

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and I do think that uh often I find that

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uh those themes are always there and uh

143
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what I mean by that is that they attract

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me to the story if the story doesn't

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come from something that I've thought

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myself or thought up myself uh some

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moral choice is uh certainly there every

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day of our lives and I mean it's it's

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inherent in everything we do and every

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action that we see or observe and as we

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get older I think um of course a sense

152
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of a moral conflict and choice changes

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and

154
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[Music]

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deepen I have been drawn to different

156
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stories for different reasons of course

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the key the key element of course again

158
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is a passion for wanting to tell that

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story like a Mean Streets or uh taxi

160
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driver that Paul Trader wrote uh or

161
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uh elements of Raging Bull or uh Age of

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Innocence that sort of thing there was a

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desire and a need or gangs in New York

164
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to really not rest until I was able to

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express this these thoughts and these

166
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stories on film and go through that

167
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process I mean sometimes it's uh um

168
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because I'm just intrigued by something

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and uh would enjoy I think um the

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process of the film making itself in the

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case of like The Aviator um was early

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Aviation which I'm fascinated by and

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Aviation pioneering films that were

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being made in that and the story of

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course the um aspect or one section of

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uh early early part of Howard uses his

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life with the character who was so

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powerful and had such genius but at the

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same time had the seeds of his own

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destruction um and so this was

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fascinating to me or like in gangs of

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the recreation of New York uh at an

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earlier moment in history like The Gangs

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of New York or the Age of Innocence I

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always talk about the fact that growing

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up down there at the age of 10 11 12 I

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could tell from the cobblestones in the

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street that they had stories to tell in

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the old uh Basilica of St Patrick's

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Cathedral the church um First Catholic

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cathedral in in New York um the fact

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that they had to protect and defend the

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cathedral in 1844 against the no

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nothings and the wi awakes the nativists

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who wanted the immigrants out of the

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country so I knew things were had

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happened there and that there were

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Generations that had died away and had

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lived lives in that area and struggled

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and fought uh and so for me I was always

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uh uh intrigued by this in the case of

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Shar Island I was interested in working

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with with a kind of material that

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recalled certain kinds of films I really

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Lov uh great you know film Wars like uh

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out of the past or Laura or

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Crossfire I thought that the uh

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character played by Leo uh Leo DiCaprio

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I mean the way he perceived the world

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around him would have been in his mental

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state at that time Visions uh in the key

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of those movies of those pictures

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um that sense of noirish post-war

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America even uh the black and white

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photos um in the tabloids all of this

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sort of thing would have been what was

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in his head how he perceived that world

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around him in Shar Island uh twisted and

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hallucinated as was oh in the case of

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Last Temptation Of Christ I obviously

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very interested in in that material for

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my whole life in this case of um an

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exploration of the Dual nature of Christ

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of being Christ and what it means to the

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faithful in the case of Silence uh

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obsessed with the questions of Faith

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won't go away

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[Music]

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one of the key things no matter how

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great a screenplay is or no matter what

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form it takes really one has to remember

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that um that's not the final project the

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final product is the film so the

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screenplay is a step to get to the film

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and a lot L of things could

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happen uh between the two stages of

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development so to speak uh terrific

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director filmmaker named Alexander

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mckendrick said that scripts aren't

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written they're

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Rewritten I remember once I was trying

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to work with a really great writer and

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it was a friend a friend of mine warned

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me listen this guy's great he said but

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you only get one draft out of him um for

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this writer one draft and his job was

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done uh but for me it wasn't done I mean

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working that way I had to find

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uh I have to find that uh for me it's

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somewhat it's really just the beginning

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I have to go further with it I mean I

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read the draft and then you know I read

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the draft and I react to it in terms of

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what I'm seeing in my mind or it Sparks

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something new for me and we build on

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that or we alter it and then the next

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dra Sparks something else and so on and

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so on WE it really is a a process of

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discovery but primarily uh in the case

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of um coming up with an idea or uh

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having

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a theme that I wanted to explore or

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working on an adaptation of a novel or

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um a uh adaptation I should say of

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non-fiction

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material in a sense particularly

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non-fiction material it's just the

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beginning in terms of the script

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especially if you don't have a

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structural concept you know visual

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structural concept and it's not on the

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page yet um it's almost a matter of U of

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taking it down and and uh in a sense

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distilling the non-fictional Source

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material until you get it to the size of

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a film in a way U I think it was the

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story of um SRA writing uh Freud for

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John Houston where he came in the

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screenplay was 200 pages and Houston and

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this is paraphrasing Houston supposedly

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said it's really good but it's it's too

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long could you go back and see you know

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I can't you said I think I can make it

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even clear CLE and said good well go

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ahead and do that he came back with a

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screenplay of 300 pages and it was

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clear it's just that it still wasn't it

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wasn't a picture that that Houston could

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make at that time under those

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[Music]

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circumstances I love the richness of

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elements that we put into the film based

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on research um the rules of the world of

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the picture reveal themselves as it as

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you develop it so your re resarch into

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the way of life or the period or the you

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know particular customs and habits of a

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particular part of the world are are

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going to be something that uh you must

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feel comfortable with something that you

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could you could rely on something that

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gives you the Bedrock of the picture but

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again um it's really important not to

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let the research lead you away from what

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sparked you making the film in the first

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place when we were

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researching oh the Age of Innocence

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gangs in New York and silence um the

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research led us into you know many

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fascinating directions and at times

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these directions could have threatened

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to overwhelm the entire picture but

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again you have to keep remembering okay

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this is fascinating and Rich but it's

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leading me away from what drew me and

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excited me to take certain things to uh

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let's

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say in the case of Age of Innocence

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which was

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um fascinating because we were able to

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go into the story uh discover the actual

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families that the families in the book

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were based upon and then do some

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research to get a sense of the type of

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paintings they had in their houses um

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and then base our paintings on that

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actual paintings um but again we didn't

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lock ourselves into anything this was an

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enjoyment of the process in a way um

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accuracy is good but it's it's well

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there's there's a famous quote there's a

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there's nothing more boring than

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accuracy on a film so so one has to have

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a sense of how to use it and how

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to transform it you know and in the case

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of silence for example the research was

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something that I done over a period of

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years because I had to feel comfortable

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with uh as much as possible with 17th

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century Japan by the end of the the film

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um the character Rodriguez is uh laid to

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rest it's played by Andrew

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Garfield and

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we had it worked out so that he's laid

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out

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um in his in his uh wooden coffin and

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his wife is allowed to see him for the

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last time Etc uh and during the during

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the uh the progress of the

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pre-production we learn that the it's a

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Buddhist uh ceremony and he's not laid

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out he's buried in a uh a barrel you see

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which Chang the look of the shot of

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course and um also changed the uh the

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staging of the film and the scene

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because the way the wife had to move in

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and place the momentto Mori in his hands

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the guards watching her uh all of this

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changed the whole tone changed um and I

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must say what I mean by the tone is that

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even the tone on set changed so that

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when we see the barrel and we see all

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the paraphernalia of the of the Buddhist

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ritual um for the Dead uh this created

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kind of dictated the framing

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dictated

140
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sound and the movement of the actors so

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it was a major change it was like making

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a different

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[Music]

144
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film this is really important in the

145
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scripting uh which usually comes by way

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of lots of discussion days and days and

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then weeks and weeks

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but also in rehearsals but the

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rehearsals become almost writing

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sessions in a way well for Wall Street

151
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was very much that way at po at times in

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the rehearsal uh rehearsals of Wolf of

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Wall Street I'd have to tell the actress

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to take it to a certain point stop and

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save it for the cameras uh because I

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knew I'd be going there and I knew that

157
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I would shape it in the cutting in

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certain ways between Leo and Jonah Hill

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and all the others Margo and that sort

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of thing so um

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getting the actors involved let's say in

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in the characters of Casino you

163
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know jira's character and Sharon Stone

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and and uh Joe pesy I mean the

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conception of who the character is

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sometimes changes subtly and sometimes

167
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changes greatly but we're really trying

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to find in that particular instance

169
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Truth for the characters so that if

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something develops a different way in

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the scene they know how to move so that

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it's within character they know how to

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respond so that's within character

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because if you have to explain something

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constantly to the actor about the world

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that they're in um and that this person

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wouldn't say that to that kind of person

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or she wouldn't move here she would uh

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then it's a matter of um then it's just

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a matter of recasting at that

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[Music]

182
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point TX driver was so strongly scripted

183
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that it allowed us

184
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to open

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up two or three scenes not much but two

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or three scenes couple of one scene I

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think one or two scenes with Harvey

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kitel and Robert dairo where we improv

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improvise improvise dialogue from a

190
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rehearsal from rehearsal and uh uh to

191
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the street when we shot the scene uh

192
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some stuff was kind of reconstructed

193
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with uh Cil chaper and Albert Brooks but

194
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but primarily the the the most exciting

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call improvisation or happening use an

196
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old term on camera was um Rober tenero

197
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in front of the

198
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mirror and that was in the last week of

199
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shooting and that's when we were over

200
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schedule and I knew that it's written in

201
00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,880
the script that he's practicing with

202
00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:48,959
these guns and this sort of thing and

203
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devices in front of the mirror um and

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he's acting out this fantasy but I

205
00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,160
wanted him to I wanted him to say

206
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something I really didn't have much I

207
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could offer we found out myself sneaking

208
00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:04,240
the scene into the schedule and um uh

209
00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,120
him what you see on screen is really him

210
00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,000
reving up and finding that moment

211
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,560
finding that character fully but that

212
00:09:13,560 --> 00:09:15,640
really took I'd say about 8 weeks of

213
00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:17,480
shooting before getting to that and we

214
00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,399
shot it within two hours you know um

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already pushing against the end of the

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day so it was not a relaxed

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easy what I mean by easy nothing's easy

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but what I mean is a

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relaxed um atmosphere so to speak in

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fact we had to lock the doors and keep

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the U assistant director

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out because they kept pushing us to

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finish and I give me five minutes two

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minutes so you know but this this

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allowed itself I think allowed itself

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to the combination of the actors myself

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cameraman all of us uh and the script uh

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we were allowed or the script allowed us

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to to open it up in places that we don't

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think there might be those that disagree

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of course but we don't think that it um

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Disturbed the structure of the

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story of course Good Fellas in Casino

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was something

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entirely uh different they were very

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clearly written but then we went from

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the page and opened those scenes same

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thing particularly in Good Fellas you

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know and then of course what you really

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hope for particularly in

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films like Casino Good Fellas let's say

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or Wolf of Wall Street what happens on

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the

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set and it's always Rewritten on the set

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right there meaning that you you need to

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allow the life to come through you know

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uh because you're depicting worlds that

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have a lot of life in them you know in a

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very overt way um and so that gets us up

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to a point where you get into the

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editing room and that's Rewritten there

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too sometimes

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dramatically altering the structure or

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in some cases you do ad narration or you

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try not to had narration to

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explain uh uh to explain the U

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progression of the story like Exposition

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but uh a kind of another element of of

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uh commentary um or you do something

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small but significant that changes the

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whole tone of the picture so in to a

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certain extent you you're really you

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rewrite

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it and you rewrite it again and you

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rewrite it again and then you rewrite it

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sometimes in the Final Mix you know uh

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and some people well we always find we

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take it even to the color correction at

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this

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[Music]

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point I found that at times in terms of

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shooting a

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film some films that have a pretty

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strong uh plot Point uh plot line um I

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was able to go in um with the actors

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with the writer and uh rework each scene

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consistently to the point of uh uh uh

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staying on on track with the plot but

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changing characters changing motivations

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all sorts of things all the way through

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and experimenting and trying different

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things all the way to the point where I

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think uh keeping one character uh in

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this case it was ver farga in U uh The

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Departed keeping her to the end uh

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because um I wanted to see how we could

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incorporate as best we could in that

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world of that film The Departed how you

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could incorporate uh her character

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uh since she is non-active that way

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they're all very active you know and so

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um the same thing with Leo we worked on

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with Bill Monahan and ourselves on the

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script Matt Damon Alec Baldwin uh Mark

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wallberg um Everybody basically and Jack

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Nicholson of course and so uh all of

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this changed radically while we were

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shooting the film you see and so uh it

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was constantly it was constantly going

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off into new territory and sometimes it

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may not it worked I don't know in terms

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of my own head while I was shooting it

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and thinking well maybe I'll try it I

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don't know and then finally we had to

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come back to the plot so to speak I

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always joke about that but it's not

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funny it's not a um it's not meant to be

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funny it's it's a uh ironic uh uh I like

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the plot very much but I found I was um

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um feeling straight laced about it and

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so I wanted to open up character and the

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world of the uh fatalistic Irish

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Catholicism and the underworld you know

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in Boston and so we just uh pushed and

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pushed and push them finally it was

316
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redone completely in the editing we

317
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figured out new scenes to shoot shot

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them for four days put them in the

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picture and that's the final picture but

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um it was a work in progress more than

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uh a number of other films I made over

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the years so uh talking

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about new

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elements for example um oh there's a

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scene with Jack Nicholson and Matt

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Damon in which he taunts Matt uh about

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his manhood you know and there was a lot

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of friction a lot of tension in the

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scene that

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onset uh and during it I realized well

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Matt you know one thing is interesting

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since this element came up in the scene

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it was in the movie theater I said what

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if part of the problem he's having with

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um meline the Fe figz character is his

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inability to

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perform as uh

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sexually uh and so this is something

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that Matt and I hit on at the same time

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and so later we shot another scene uh uh

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um underlining that which also opened it

342
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up a little bit for at least her

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attraction to Billy you see but this

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came out of something that happened with

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Jack and Matt uh and it started to go a

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skew and we pulled it back and found

347
00:14:59,759 --> 00:15:04,160
another value and um in a sense uh uh we

348
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,399
thought enrich the character um Matt

349
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Matt Damon's character in the picture

350
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there are many different instances of

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that sort of thing uh some succeed some

352
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don't some I don't know some I don't

353
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know people tell me if they're if they

354
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think they succeed later on people are

355
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watching it and it means anything to

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them I have no idea

1
00:00:03,130 --> 00:00:13,200
[Music]

2
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that first um I was a casting director

3
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so um I I did uh we put a few ads in

4
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backstage newspaper I think it was and

5
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we uh found Harvey kitel uh in 1965 he

6
00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,560
came to uh an audition quote unquote at

7
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myu which was actually just myself and a

8
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friend uh and uh a couple of other

9
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people for some of my short films um but

10
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primarily you you uh at that time uh

11
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just grab your friends and your parents

12
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and put them in because they're going to

13
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have to do it for you you know your

14
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parents and if they're around and if

15
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they're available to do it and it isn't

16
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so complicated they've got to do it so

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from that basically a home movie main

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streets is like a home movie in a sense

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uh not literally but uh well at some

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cases yes but at some points it is but

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uh primarily a lot of the people in the

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frame and um even think Senor Robert

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dairo who grew up in that area so he

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knew many of the people making the film

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about and shot in the hallways of where

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where we grew up and people around us uh

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it was kind of

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a a community effort so to speak since

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then I was able to work on a couple of

30
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films uh two or three films was a very

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very key casting process with CIS Corman

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who did Raging Bull king of comedy and

33
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Last Temptation Of Christ originally um

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but in the late 80s began to work with

35
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the same casting director Ellen Lewis

36
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and Ellen kind of of course we discuss

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the project she reads what I'm going

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after and U she usually knows exactly

39
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what I want for Good Fellas for example

40
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we were taken up to Roo's restaurant and

41
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in one night we cast about five rolls

42
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just from the people in the resta

43
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so we've been doing that ever since and

44
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for that kind of picture for that kind

45
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of film um but she gives me a range of

46
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choices and I respond to them make

47
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decisions we can the reason we work

48
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together is I could tell that um the

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people she brings to me I connect with

50
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for the most part so we kind of have the

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same taste in a way um and uh I always

52
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say that you know casting is 85 to 90%

53
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of the picture from me so

54
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you know all of you just starting out I

55
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want to repeat you know again ins syst

56
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on what you want and you don't settle

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for close enough for second best and um

58
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don't imagine there's a shortcut it's

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meeting the people spending time with

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them talking with them then putting them

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together with the other actors that's a

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key thing and see how the other actors

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respond um it's somewhat different I

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think

65
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than I could imagine a studio system

66
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where in the case of uh certain key

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films uh filmmakers had to work with

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certain actors because with contractual

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issues and um very often they didn't get

70
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along uh with each other uh but that was

71
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the contract and they had to do it here

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that may not be the case I don't say you

73
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have to become friends uh but you have

74
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to be here's the key thing with casting

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and this is why casting director is so

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important he or she has to know that um

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with the actors primarily you want to

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work with the actors you all agreee

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you're making the same film that's the

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key now how you get to make the same

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00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:37,599
film that's part of the process how you

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work with the actor that's a give and

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take somehow but if you are making the

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00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:43,560
same film if you know that and your

85
00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,040
casting director knows that and she

86
00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:46,920
knows to pull actors for you to choose

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from that are of the same mind then you

88
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have possibility of making the picture

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and you get this unexpected dimension

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[Music]

91
00:04:01,879 --> 00:04:06,079
I found that I responded to actors

92
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pretty much through the films I saw now

93
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for many years through the 40s and early

94
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50s uh the films I saw the acting was of

95
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a certain style right of a certain time

96
00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:21,120
coming out of U Hollywood tradition or

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from England for

98
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example wonderful like Alec Guinness and

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Olivier and James Mason and so many

100
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others um and Hollywood of course you

101
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had the greats you know Stewart and

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Carrie Grant and Henry Fonda and so many

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others and Marino Hara and John Wayne

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and all of this sort of thing but

105
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they're from another world you know and

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of course in England another world then

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I saw kazan's

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films I saw on the waterfront in East of

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Eden and those were both in the same

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year I think or a year apart and those

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were Revelation in terms of behavior and

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so it's really been um inspired by what

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I so they on the screen and what I

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experienced watching those films over

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and over again that's my gauge I guess

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that's where I go and to a certain

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extent I do like like cavet worked the

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where I worked on Italian americ my

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parents documentary where they're

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telling stories they're acting in a

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sense but are they acting and I I uh

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certain subject matter and certain

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stories that I make lend themselves to

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that kind of directing of actors or

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guidance of actors um but primarily the

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actor has to already be there in a way

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as I said you can't tell a person how to

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lean against a car in 1955 on Elizabeth

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Street or you know I don't know other

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worlds of course I had to be told in the

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case of Silence um what a um

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interrogation is like and the

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Magistrate's Office outside Nagasaki in

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1632 so again I see a certain thing work

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around that uh work with the actors that

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way but primarily um primarily it's uh

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it's

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a a combination if I can finding the

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person on screen as they're doing it as

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they're in the process almost something

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that's that may not be it certainly

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doesn't feel like it's scripted in many

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cases that's what I'm hoping for you

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know something natural um but not I

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don't know what naturalism is I don't

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know realism is I'm just uh it this is

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where I was talking about the business

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of the mixture of non-fiction and

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fiction

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where it all becomes a film I don't know

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what you want to call it but that's what

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it

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[Music]

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is I do think um for me coming out of a

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situation where I often used uh worked

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with u people who are around mixed with

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actors they have to come from that spot

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they have to come from that that part of

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the world they have to come from that

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culture I should say particularly in

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certain um um uh films depicting certain

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periods of certain worlds like a Mean

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Streets or a taxi driver Raging Bull Etc

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King comedy uh that was contemporaneous

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to me you know and I felt that mixing um

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non actors with the actors partially I

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must say again going back to the

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beginnings of making films we had no

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choice but to use non-actors so it

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became something that was um natural to

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me uh um and so we uh uh kind of relied

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on that it Al so meant that by placing a

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non-actor in with the actors as long as

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the actors as I say are making the same

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film as you as long as they understand

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the environment that they're they're

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they're working

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within um they could maybe lose if there

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is any artificiality lose that by being

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around the non-actor you

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[Music]

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see sir Ben Kingsley doing uh

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George

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M he uh finds the posture and that's

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George I there's there I know it's there

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you see I know it's there um his look

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his Manner and his use of the language

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and the text he's one who sticks with

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the text and that particular film uh and

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even in shadar island with Ben you're

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able to work with that text I mean he's

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there um his behavior as the uh the

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doctor in sh island is there it was

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there the way he moves and the look in

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his eye and so um that's another way of

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feeling uh how should I say that the

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person inhabits the role you see um I

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had a confidence in fact I never even

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thought of him as Ben Kingsley and when

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we were doing Yugo it was always

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George I remember um the

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great-granddaughter I think was sitting

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on the set one day in Paris and she came

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to say hello and we got to meet and uh

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and Ben came out it was in it was in the

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sorbon and Ben came out of the door came

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out of the main Auditorium into the

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lobby and she suddenly teared up because

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it was her great-grandfather whom she

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never

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met um and this was spontaneous it's not

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oh this is so and so and he's portraying

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this is just happen to

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be at the moment so there was some sense

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of authority really the character you

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know it's something I admire greatly I I

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can't do it nor can I think I can

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really um excel in directing or creating

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that with certain actors or certain

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kinds of pictures I don't think I can

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but when I experience it on the set with

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people like uh like Ben and and Daniel

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day and oh a number of others uh it's

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something of u a sense of awe um a sense

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of uh

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a sense of

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uh a beauty and power that uh something

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you respect and admired

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[Music]

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I think it's important for a director to

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know something about acting it's good if

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he or she gets in front of the camera

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and fails miserably uh and then succeeds

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a little bit I think it's really

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important to know what it's like to hit

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the light to make sure you're there in

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the to make sure you're there for the

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other actor to

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respond uh to get a sense of um how you

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walk across a room because you could

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become very self-conscious what you do

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with your hands you

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know it's always good every uh C after a

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certain period of time for you to get in

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front of that camera to play apart or in

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somebody else's film be directed by

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other people or any bits and pieces even

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if you're playing yourself um I mean I'm

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not saying you should read all of

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stanislowski or play Kowalski or

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Cordelia but it's it's good to know

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something about the challenges and the

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fears that the actors face and the

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techniques they use and the different

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approaches they take to what they

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do because again I'm looking for the the

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connection that sparked between

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us sometimes it proves to be more

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difficult on set with certain actors and

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you might have realized and every once

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in a while it just doesn't work out and

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you're somewhat disappointed you might

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get something else uh and you may not

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even like that something else but it's

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enough for that moment and you realize

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okay in the future I have to be careful

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of this or that and may not always work

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um

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so you do work with what you get

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ultimately you know and that's a rule I

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guess in film making uh or many things

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but uh you may want one thing but you're

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going to through circumstances whatever

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you wind up with other things and that

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has to do with the actors so uh

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hopefully you want what you get um and

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there's the spark of humanity is the key

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with the actors

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I guess the term director is misleading

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sometimes when it comes to actors of

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course in one sense it's on target I

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mean I could not uh think about uh

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working on stage or utilizing uh

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techniques U by by directors who have

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gone through certain methods I I

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wouldn't know um one thing I mean I

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would think in a a raw situation actor

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at least needs

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needs the director to kind of Orient him

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or her because I mean you're always

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going to be shooting out a sequence

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that's one of the problems and they're

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going to look to you to you know tell

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them where they are in the story and

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where they're feeling emotionally it's a

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very difficult thing I think think we

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have the training uh uh of a director a

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training of directors worked in theater

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uh it might be it's never easy but at

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least you might be more familiar with it

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for me I always find it rather difficult

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but this is where you work together um

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but on the other hand they also need to

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explore and I always tell I like to tell

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the actors too

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particularly try anything you know um

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and if you had the time on set which you

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don't usually but if you do if you make

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the time have the time to fail as much

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as you can and tell them it's okay just

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go ahead try this try that and uh you

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need that freedom you need to give them

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that freedom particularly you can do

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this in the rehearsal there's no mistake

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you just go you do it and explore the

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instincts and then you try to shape from

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there in discussion if something has

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gone in a different direction I don't

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want to say gone wrong but if something

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has gone in a different direction where

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people don't agree or something and it

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right you find yourself you can cover it

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in such a way and you never at times I

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must say you have to be careful you you

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you know sometimes you think something

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is dreadfully wrong and later when you

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look at in the context of a cut might

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work you know uh there are things I know

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don't work immediately but you shoot

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them just shoot them because it's a

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process for the actor to go through

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that and if I say no you can't do that I

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found when I did that it threw certain

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kinds of actors off not all not all but

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certain kinds and um I found that um

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it's best to uh let that person he or

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she work it out and if it's a matter of

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shooting it by the time you discussing

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you could shoot

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it then you use it or

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[Music]

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not I think in terms of um uh being able

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to work with dairo in eight movies or so

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and DiCaprio so far in five I

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mean again it's all based on uh a

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similar experience life experience and a

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similar way of looking at life then um

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in the case well in the case of dairo he

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did actually

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um he was actually part of the

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neighborhood I was growing up in at the

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same time so he knows the world he knows

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the the uh the codes of that area he

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knows the behavior he knows the uh the

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culture you know DiCaprio something else

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with 30 years difference um yet his

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instincts uh are very similar and um his

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curiosity is very similar uh to mine um

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and the ability to take chances uh not

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be afraid is something that uh uh is

133
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remarkable and feel comfortable this all

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goes the way of trust trusting each

135
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other you see so when you're trust that

136
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way and we have let's say in the case of

137
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Mean Streets or taxi driver we have a

138
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really solid story in a way if they want

139
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to take a scene a certain place I'll go

140
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with them there you know uh see what it

141
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is uh to the point where you know either

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we do it or we don't do it and in

143
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discussion and rehearsal or or um and

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setting up the shot um or we do it and I

145
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don't use it and that doesn't mean you

146
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you you do it um and intend not to use

147
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it but you try it later in the cutting

148
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it doesn't quite work um but there's the

149
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uh there's a trust to uh open the

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character

151
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and enrich it within the context of the

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way the character is written and who he

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he or she is that's the key uh if they

154
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start to take it and go off to uh

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suddenly uh uh doing things that we

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don't think the character really should

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should be doing or who that character is

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we'd find it I think we'd find it and I

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would felt comfortable with them Harvey

160
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kitel too Mean Streets taxi driver for

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example Judas when he played Judas in U

162
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in last dation of Christ but I was very

163
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lucky Barbara Hershey Willam def all

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these people felt that way you see um

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and so uh

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this is something that develops with

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time I mean I was very lucky with dairo

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because was on the first film main

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streets we had it um we had that

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relationship it it was it was solidified

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in taxi driver because we weren't

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playing a neighborhood guy quote unquote

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who playing something else uh Travis

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pickle that reflected positively or

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negatively emotion psychological states

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that we uh

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understood or felt you know that Sher

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wrote and so um that's why there was

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very little discussion about who he is

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we didn't have any discussion on that we

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just did

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[Music]

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it there's aspects too where actors are

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completely you get in a situation where

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somebody's completely uh incapable of

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working whether it's uh chemicals or

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just I don't

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know in a case like that only once I had

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to recast I think was lucky

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but once or twice maybe and there was a

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time where an actor decided to did a few

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scenes and 20 years ago this was 25

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years ago and then one morning was

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supposed to show up for the next scene

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and left a letter saying that he decided

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not to continue

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acting and

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apologized and so he said all right we

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cast another fellow and reshot the

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scenes squeezing it back into the

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schedule um these things happen but if

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it is a picture where um you need the

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dialogue and you need a certain scene

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being done and person can't do it or is

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incapacitated It's tricky sometimes

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you're able to get them to do just

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enough and cover it in such a way you

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know and that takes a lot of time and

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patience you know and sometimes it's an

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issue where you can't reach shoot a lot

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of things you have to utilize that

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person for another two

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weeks and so you just go through it you

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know the only thing you could think of

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in the future you try not to if the

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film calls for it you try not to uh

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meaning if the film is of that of that

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uh style where you do need a person to

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go from A to B to C maybe or a to c or a

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to F whatever in a scene somebody who

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could kind of stay track no matter what

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what's going on in their minds or their

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bodies they chemicals some can't

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[Music]

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after um World War II primarily they

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began to shoot films in New York um Kiss

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of Death uh um Cry of the city uh a

5
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sense of a docu drama house in 92nd

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Street things like that and um uh more

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and more films were being shot in Naked

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City being shot in New York that way um

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and so uh began to

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mix soundstage work with actual location

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photography and that slowly developed

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into uh what we do now uh by the end of

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the ' 50s and the early 60s the

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equipment got lighter and we're able to

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shoot anywhere supposedly uh but back in

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the early 90s Federico felini he never

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shot uh outside of outside of Italy you

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know he said he didn't understand any

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other place so he was going to make a

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series of films about um the different

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jobs different figures in film making an

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Hour film let's say on the actor an hour

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on the producer an hour on the director

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an hour on the writer that sort of thing

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and we were trying to help get it off

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the ground I remember we

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actually um actually got some financing

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for uh uh the film he was going to make

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on the producer and he to in in the

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script uh it was purely felen esque of

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course um he went into great detail

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about location

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Scouts and uh he said it's really

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important to get a production uh manager

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and producer to understand about

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location Scouts particularly when you

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start early in the morning you know and

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then you have to stop somewhere and then

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continue on the key thing uh was to um

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choose a location midday uh that you

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really aren't going to use but it's near

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the best

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restaurant so you can have a great lunch

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you know and this is this was the tone

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of the kind of thing he was talking

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about in terms of uh uh describing uh uh

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the different roles of filmmakers and

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the crew and uh have to make a picture I

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mean a location scout when you when you

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you want a location scout to go out

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there kind really knows exactly what you

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want if you know exactly what you want

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and what I mean by that um is that you

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may feel you need something that

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has a sense of this particular place or

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that particular time uh brick work but

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uh maybe with some stule over it you're

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not quite sure so that person has to go

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and choose maybe four to five six maybe

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more different looks and bring that back

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to you so you can help make your

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decision you know um but you know

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shooting Stills um of location or even

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taking

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video of locations today it's really

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deceptive you have to be very careful

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the best thing is always to go there um

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I personally don't like location

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scouting anymore we can't get anywhere

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in the traffic traffic is too heavy cars

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it's bumpy

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roads takes a long time to get to a

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place you look at it you're not

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satisfied with it but look this is part

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of the process you do as best you

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can in pictures and in um on video

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sometimes things look really great you

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say I've done this before I'm going to

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shoot that I don't have to go see it

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well when I got there it was different

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and I should have gone you know um in

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some cases we were able to move to

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another place other cases not

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um there you you you if you don't

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actually go to a place you may find that

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you think particularly working from

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Stills or from overhead diagrams you may

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think you have more room for example

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than you actually do um you get to a

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place and you realize oh I can't put the

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camera here because the door is over

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here or it's not a set it's not

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something you can move you know when I

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was doing Shutter Island we had a uh uh

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scene that we were were trying to get

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out of this this location that wasn't an

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actual location it was a a place we're

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using as a sound stage in somewhere in

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in um Massachusetts outside of Boston

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and Dante Fetti and myself the

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production designer and we had the

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spiral staircase and it was meant to be

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against Green Screen and we were really

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under a lot of pressure to finish the

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film and we had this big scene the next

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day was going to run up this spiral

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staircase um to kick in the door Etc to

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you know big climactic scene in the film

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and um as I'm about to leave after the

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day shooting and another part of the set

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we had built sets inside this thing um I

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went past and Dante said come look at

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the spiral staircase I'm sure it's going

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to be okay so yeah because he knew what

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it was we had many models and drawings

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so I looked at it and I said yeah it's

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really good and as I was about to leave

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I said could you turn it he said what I

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said could we turn it he said well I

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have to dig into the ground B I said

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yeah yeah so there's always something

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that uh that uh uh is best to always see

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it I should have probably seen it the

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day before but he was able to to do that

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because I think he anticipated what I

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wanted we had discussed it earlier that

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we would turn the spiral staircase at

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the same time as the camera was going

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around it um and we turn it the opposite

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way counterclockwise so um he knew that

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but it was an issue um in a case like

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that there were so many sets and so many

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different changes in weather that it was

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very difficult to keep up with checking

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out the locations and so that I was

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constantly being

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surprised and this happens a great deal

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constantly being surprised by the actual

139
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location itself and the limitations then

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you have to figure out how the

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limitations could become advantages you

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know I become something else um and so

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it's always best to U if you're not

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building a set uh to go to location and

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spend time

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[Music]

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there the only important thing the only

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thing that really matters is what it's

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going to look like on the screen and I

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find that I'm still surprised sometimes

151
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when I sit it on the screen

152
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um very often we've had situations where

153
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actors find it difficult to do something

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in a scene because their perception the

155
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reality around them is U affecting how

156
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the character is supposed to see this um

157
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but on film it looks right and there are

158
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there are times uh people could do it

159
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other times you have to make some

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adjustments but um ultimately this is

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what Hitchcock told Fran truo it only

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matters what it looks like on screen he

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was absolutely right how's it going to

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look in the frame the feeling of the

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place when you visited the

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mood uh it's all great but what will the

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viewer be seeing there

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so you have to be thinking that all the

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time because that takes in if you go see

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a place for example with the wrong light

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if you go uh to a place that has a floor

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to ceiling windows and you go at 9:00 at

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night and you're doing Day scenes in the

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place it doesn't pay to see to see it

175
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you have to get a sense of what it's

176
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like in the morning you got to get a

177
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sense of what it's like about 2 o'clock

178
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in the afternoon this sort of thing um

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you know because you're going to you're

180
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often going to wind up shooting in a

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wide variety of places I mean from the

182
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Age of Innocence the Age of Innocence we

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shot in in New York um in Troy New York

184
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in Boston in Philadelphia and you always

185
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have to think of how it's all going to

186
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come together as one coherent world uh

187
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the New York of the 1870s really doesn't

188
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exist some Interiors some in um in

189
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um areas of Brooklyn some Interiors

190
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exteriors in the city of Troy um and

191
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Interiors in Philadelphia too so we had

192
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to put all this together Dante Fetti uh

193
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worked this out to create the impression

194
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of 1870s New York it isn't like uh

195
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uh period films in England so to speak

196
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when you go to a a manor house or an

197
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estate of some kind it exists it's there

198
00:08:17,639 --> 00:08:20,639
you know it's a matter of the U

199
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certainly not nothing easy but it is

200
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still a matter of the building existing

201
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um uh here it became very difficult

202
00:08:34,039 --> 00:08:36,560
in the case of a taxi driver the

203
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locations were all in New York we built

204
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um were like sets we were able to take

205
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um a building that was going to be torn

206
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down and we were able to get this

207
00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:49,720
building we were able to use the

208
00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,440
interior hallway at 89th Street in

209
00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:52,880
Columbus Avenue it was just the

210
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beginning of gentrification a lot of the

211
00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,800
stuff is being swept away so you see the

212
00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,200
last of it in in Taxi Driver um

213
00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,600
and we were able to get uh the building

214
00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:03,800
where we used the interior of the

215
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hallway for the shootout ultimately at

216
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the end of the picture and on the end of

217
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the at the top of the first floor

218
00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,800
landing on the first floor was um iris's

219
00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,880
apartment we're able to use that uh and

220
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,320
then down the hall actually we made

221
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Travis's apartment which was in a

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different place but we were able to use

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that as like a base that entire building

224
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uh so much so that um because sha had

225
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written into the script that the uh

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camera at the end of the shootout is

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staring straight down overhead tracking

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past um uh the

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spectacle of what has occurred out into

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the street you know out down the stairs

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I should say and we were able uh by

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getting that building and acquiring that

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building we were able to uh build those

234
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apartments in the building and at the

235
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same time start to cut through the

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ceiling

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to put a track camera up there and when

238
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we find took three months to get that

239
00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,760
pulled together they just the the track

240
00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,240
on on the ceiling to be able to take off

241
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the the uh elements of the ceiling that

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were still there Etc or from when we

243
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were shooting we needed the ceiling so

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they put some things in and take it out

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and we were able to to to um it took

246
00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:21,680
about three months to be able to cut

247
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through all that and create the track

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that you see at the end of the film and

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then because of um certain restrictions

250
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it took uh we were only given 20 minutes

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to do the

252
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scene um which caused a lot of anxiety

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but we got the shot

1
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[Music]

2
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the production design for example of um

3
00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:18,800
uh Good Fellas is somewhat different of

4
00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:19,880
course from the production designer

5
00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,600
Raging Bull I mean Raging Bull is a

6
00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,400
black and white um and takes place in

7
00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,160
the 40s and into the early 50s I think

8
00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,480
um we uh very often

9
00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,120
um did tests on black and white film of

10
00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:35,640
the black and white Interiors black and

11
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white clothes that sort of thing uh was

12
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a very different approach but in

13
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Goodfellas it was to be truthful to the

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time and place um and what they had to

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00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,399
do with costumes and particularly uh

16
00:00:46,399 --> 00:00:48,399
production design or the use of actual

17
00:00:48,399 --> 00:00:50,879
locations and I just drew on memory

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really a great deal uh some of it is a a

19
00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,920
heightened memory you know uh but the

20
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Copa cab I could tell you was quite

21
00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,160
accurate I was there a lot and uh that's

22
00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:02,440
what usually happen I didn't go in the

23
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back way but um if we did get to to sit

24
00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,400
at the ringside by the uh by the Dance

25
00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,720
Floor uh inevitably and we thought we

26
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had great seats inevitably there' be a

27
00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:14,680
table that would come in and be placed

28
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in front of you and these Wise Guys

29
00:01:15,799 --> 00:01:17,479
would be sitting there so you couldn't

30
00:01:17,479 --> 00:01:21,560
see anything but um in any event um we

31
00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,360
just really had to be as truthful as

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00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,880
possible to uh uh the period but also

33
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what I remember

34
00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,439
now when you take it to casino which was

35
00:01:36,439 --> 00:01:38,960
an extension of Good Fellas in away uh

36
00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:42,280
goes to Las Vegas in the 70s and um we

37
00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,280
had to um I feel um give the impression

38
00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,399
first of all 235 aspect ratio as opposed

39
00:01:49,399 --> 00:01:53,520
to 185 was wider screen give the

40
00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,000
impression of a spectacle um the

41
00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,000
spectacle like a a Las Vegas show B

42
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,960
basically you could say Glitz you could

43
00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:07,079
say theatrical to a certain extent um

44
00:02:07,079 --> 00:02:08,720
yes you know but a lot of this is played

45
00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:10,720
out against theatrical backgrounds I

46
00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:12,959
mean one of the best films made about uh

47
00:02:12,959 --> 00:02:16,160
Las Vegas uh was in 59 I think or 60 it

48
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,360
was the Oceans 11 the original one first

49
00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,760
half of the picture is like a time

50
00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,879
capsule of Vegas at that time in

51
00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:25,720
widescreen and color uh to what these

52
00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,840
places really look like um and shot on

53
00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:30,599
location

54
00:02:30,599 --> 00:02:34,840
here we had to um

55
00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,440
make references so to speak to certain

56
00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,640
places uh we couldn't use names of the

57
00:02:40,640 --> 00:02:43,159
Stardust um Casino we had to make up

58
00:02:43,159 --> 00:02:44,680
another one uh because there were

59
00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,120
certain technical uh problems in terms

60
00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:48,480
of a lot of some of the people still

61
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being alive and not wanting any uh

62
00:02:51,319 --> 00:02:53,159
connection with it the major element

63
00:02:53,159 --> 00:02:55,519
that changed in Casino was to blast it

64
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open and to make it like a a sequences

65
00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,360
of fireworks almost across the

66
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screen starting with the explosion in

67
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the car and the the sa and the Lan bass

68
00:03:07,239 --> 00:03:12,120
titles um the idea was to uh make it a

69
00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:16,879
uh a Vegas nightclub act really and so

70
00:03:16,879 --> 00:03:19,080
we went that way along with first time I

71
00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:20,760
worked with Bob Richardson along with

72
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,879
the lighting um and the camera moves and

73
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that sort of thing we had references for

74
00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,879
everything I mean there were pictures

75
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there was some motion pictures not

76
00:03:30,519 --> 00:03:33,000
really a lot but lots of Stills lots of

77
00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,640
use of color that we saw costumes we

78
00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:41,280
knew um the idea of um the Tangier hotel

79
00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:42,799
which was really supposed to be the

80
00:03:42,799 --> 00:03:44,840
Stardust or something I'm not quite sure

81
00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,519
anymore but in any event we knew that it

82
00:03:47,519 --> 00:03:49,720
had a certain tone or quality to it for

83
00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,280
example a palm tree would look a certain

84
00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:52,720
way in one of the real hotels and we

85
00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:53,840
could take a palm tree and make it

86
00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,239
another way um Tangier with the te I

87
00:03:57,239 --> 00:03:59,439
believe became like a sword and so all

88
00:03:59,439 --> 00:04:01,519
of things as long as it captured the

89
00:04:01,519 --> 00:04:04,560
spirit of U Vegas of the 70s that's

90
00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,000
that's what we were going for and then I

91
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:07,799
told him to open it up to go even more

92
00:04:07,799 --> 00:04:10,840
to go further um the excess is what the

93
00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,040
film's about too you know excess and

94
00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:17,320
control and power so we have um uh the

95
00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,120
idea was not to shy away from it to

96
00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,280
really really uh uh dive into it and I

97
00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:25,360
use the word immerse but you really do

98
00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,000
live and breathe it when you're making

99
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:29,400
that film you know all the way through

100
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to finally when it opened up when it

101
00:04:31,639 --> 00:04:34,800
opened and I I remember going to cinema

102
00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,440
1 I think it was on 59 Street or

103
00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,600
whatever on Third Avenue introducing the

104
00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,479
film saying hello to a few people

105
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walking home locking the

106
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door I lived two blocks away went home

107
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alone lock the door leave me

108
00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,520
alone that was it it was the the way you

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see that film The the manic nature of it

110
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and the splashing of the whole thing and

111
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the people that were involved in it and

112
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everything I just you needed to be alone

113
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for a while

114
00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,039
afterwards but in any event um I thought

115
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we could really in that particular film

116
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open it up and um make it more Lush in a

117
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way because that's part of the

118
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attraction that's part of the attraction

119
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uh of That World um particularly the

120
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show scenes the the scenes of the show

121
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girls on stage and that's all backstage

122
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and this sort of thing so that's

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contrasted later you know with the

124
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confrontations for example there's a a

125
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wonderful scene I think between Joe and

126
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Bob Dair in the desert there's nothing

127
00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,240
there just the two of them in the desert

128
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arguing um and you feel you feel the the

129
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the change again the contrast builds so

130
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that you see the people who really

131
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control things the older Italian Guys in

132
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uh a place called back home because we

133
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weren't allowed to say

134
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Chicago at that point there was a

135
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technical issue legal issue so we just

136
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sit back home and um uh

137
00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,000
you'd see that

138
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,720
they basically meet or congregate in

139
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places that are pretty um you know um

140
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modest really on back of uh garages you

141
00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,160
know they have a little place where they

142
00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,039
could sit and have coffee and talk um

143
00:06:19,039 --> 00:06:20,599
you know let the others let the the

144
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clowns and the Jokers and the the strong

145
00:06:22,759 --> 00:06:26,680
armed guys go to Vegas and make us money

146
00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,840
basically so that again played um I

147
00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:33,319
think really well against the flashiness

148
00:06:33,319 --> 00:06:35,759
of of

149
00:06:39,919 --> 00:06:42,560
Vegas there was something about the uh

150
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quality of the pasolini films that um uh

151
00:06:46,919 --> 00:06:48,680
had a sense of

152
00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,520
um I say a free quality to them uh that

153
00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,599
didn't seem encumbered by too much

154
00:06:54,599 --> 00:06:56,960
production design yet they really had a

155
00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,160
sense of authenticity uh Dano was the

156
00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,639
production designer in costumes Pi toi

157
00:07:03,639 --> 00:07:05,680
all these people working together and I

158
00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,440
really admired uh doing so much with so

159
00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:13,879
little and uh for example in media Maria

160
00:07:13,879 --> 00:07:17,039
Call's uh necklaces wood wooden pieces

161
00:07:17,039 --> 00:07:20,720
of wood I believe um all of this kind of

162
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thing uh for me uh opened up another

163
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world um add to that the uh uh

164
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extreme uh uh when one takes it to the

165
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extreme and that's felini satian where

166
00:07:33,319 --> 00:07:34,840
uh you do

167
00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,919
feel that particularly in satian that

168
00:07:37,919 --> 00:07:40,440
it's science fiction but in Reverse it's

169
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sci-fi in reverse and so um in Gangs of

170
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New York particularly Gangs of New York

171
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I did

172
00:07:49,599 --> 00:07:53,479
intentionally create um uh as much as I

173
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could with a sense of a naturalistic

174
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setting but with that element of Science

175
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Fiction in reverse and and I must say

176
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that even in gangs there are things um

177
00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:04,800
that were not in the film that uh do

178
00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:06,680
feel like science fiction and that come

179
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from reality um that come from um um

180
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historical records but uh I wanted to

181
00:08:13,879 --> 00:08:16,400
take you into another world and and time

182
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so the um uh the inspiration from the

183
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Italian filmmakers uh uh enabled me to

184
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do that um and so Dante Fetti for

185
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example designing uh the Five Points

186
00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,320
was understood understood intrinsically

187
00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,680
what to do and then we take it further

188
00:08:36,680 --> 00:08:40,000
uh for example uh the Satan circus I

189
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believe it

190
00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,720
was build a butcher's uh club or bar had

191
00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,080
a Long Bar you know and we looked at it

192
00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,200
and we designed and I said let's put a

193
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tree in the

194
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middle because they're using they

195
00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:55,680
they're working and they're building

196
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these places that are you know these are

197
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not uh a strat of this is not a strat of

198
00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,920
society that has a construction and that

199
00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:06,000
has a

200
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,000
designed that is sanctioned by the

201
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,160
government or or the city council and

202
00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:11,200
this sort of thing they're just building

203
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,640
as they go it's almost like uh shanty

204
00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:15,160
town in a

205
00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,440
way so if there's a tree in the middle

206
00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,040
working around the tree it's almost if

207
00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:20,480
they're coming out of the earth and

208
00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:22,640
they're trying to live in this seemingly

209
00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,760
Urban

210
00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:26,800
environment it's all being created

211
00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,399
different from the the towns in the West

212
00:09:29,399 --> 00:09:30,880
where you'll see like a mcab and Mrs

213
00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,920
Miller the wood the wood is is new it's

214
00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,519
clean it's not uh worn it's not uh it's

215
00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:40,079
not weathered because it is fresh but

216
00:09:40,079 --> 00:09:44,600
New York uh judging from the writing um

217
00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,519
of the judging from the historical

218
00:09:46,519 --> 00:09:48,920
accounts um

219
00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,800
and first images uh actual photographs

220
00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,600
of things in the 1870s I'd say uh and

221
00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:56,720
being around some of the buildings

222
00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:58,399
growing up downtown on the Lower East

223
00:09:58,399 --> 00:09:59,720
Side some of the buildings were

224
00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:01,880
definitely from the 18th century uh

225
00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:03,720
there was one chicken Market that I know

226
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,320
the the top floor there only two stories

227
00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,279
but it wasn't even it was like a a Hut

228
00:10:09,279 --> 00:10:11,320
in a way and the the shingled roof was

229
00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,360
collapsing and that was the second floor

230
00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,000
I don't know what was up there down

231
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,760
below was this live chicken Market where

232
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:17,920
you'd have to go and get the chickens

233
00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,000
theyd kill them in front of you and so

234
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,600
um you know it was very Primal that way

235
00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,079
um and these places were used and used

236
00:10:26,079 --> 00:10:28,760
and used until they collapsed basically

237
00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,000
you know because there were hardly any

238
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,160
newspaper reports about any of that

239
00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,120
stuff uh prior to the draft riots in

240
00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,360
1863 you know um it was just something

241
00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,000
that was cut off and forgotten about you

242
00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:47,160
know and so uh in a way um it was being

243
00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,040
built as they were living in it but at

244
00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,160
the same time it didn't appear in my

245
00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,720
mind to be as fresh let's say as a

246
00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:56,279
western town that was being created

247
00:10:56,279 --> 00:10:58,000
where you had space there was no space

248
00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,000
downtown you everything was on top of

249
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,800
each other so you know you have the

250
00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:03,959
caverns below the city that we were

251
00:11:03,959 --> 00:11:05,200
criticized for by some people because

252
00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:06,639
they took it too realistically I said no

253
00:11:06,639 --> 00:11:09,440
no you understand growing up we knew of

254
00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,079
these tunnels under the city we just did

255
00:11:12,079 --> 00:11:14,440
I guess uh and one could say well you

256
00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:15,480
you might as well talk about the

257
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,920
alligators and the sewers but I must say

258
00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,720
below those tenaments they are there now

259
00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,040
um they are Sellers and there are sub

260
00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,240
Sellers and a lot of this was because of

261
00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,480
people trying to get away from you know

262
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,040
scams that they would doing or trying to

263
00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,200
get away from police or rival gang

264
00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:33,480
members and that sort of thing you go in

265
00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,920
one building and come out on you go in

266
00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:37,000
the building on Elizabeth Street and

267
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,639
come out on malberry and uh you get away

268
00:11:39,639 --> 00:11:41,959
it's just common sense um a lot of it's

269
00:11:41,959 --> 00:11:44,079
been closed off and these things exist

270
00:11:44,079 --> 00:11:45,800
so we took that and pushed it open like

271
00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:50,600
the U um the old Brewery and the shot in

272
00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,800
which we slic the set in half and you

273
00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,360
see all the compartments you see all the

274
00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,440
uh the different going on nefarious

275
00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,880
goings on in in that old

276
00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:05,680
Brewery number of films uh certainly

277
00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:07,680
reference there including of course the

278
00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:09,480
you know the Ladies Man Jerry Lewis

279
00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,200
where he just splits the set and you

280
00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,760
pull back uh it's an extraordinary

281
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:18,279
moment but we kept that idea and um uh

282
00:12:18,279 --> 00:12:20,760
obviously when you see a a place like

283
00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,279
that cut in half and you see these

284
00:12:23,279 --> 00:12:24,600
different compartments these different

285
00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:26,600
rooms and all this activity it's not

286
00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,000
meant to be uh natural it's not meant to

287
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,120
be realistic you could hopefully expect

288
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,079
anything to happen um in terms of the

289
00:12:34,079 --> 00:12:36,440
look of this picture and uh behavior of

290
00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,920
the characters in the film um and so we

291
00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:45,519
imply that the uh uh tunnels were bigger

292
00:12:45,519 --> 00:12:49,360
or more intricate than than uh one would

293
00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,880
think but I do know it's the implication

294
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,160
of people hiding out people doing things

295
00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,720
underground constantly and it still goes

296
00:12:58,720 --> 00:12:59,839
on

297
00:12:59,839 --> 00:13:04,720
everywhere and uh we just took that as a

298
00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,680
concept and opened it and made it

299
00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:14,519
U maybe slightly uh um eccentric in a

300
00:13:18,639 --> 00:13:20,760
way I

301
00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,920
became involved in a project called New

302
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,320
York New York um and uh right at the

303
00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:27,399
height of

304
00:13:27,399 --> 00:13:30,720
7576 where I was in Los Angeles and

305
00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,560
right at the height of my exuberance and

306
00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:37,360
love for the old Hollywood which was um

307
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,880
being destroyed at that point uh and an

308
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:44,320
attempt to um uh retain some of it or at

309
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,959
least um how should I say explore uh

310
00:13:47,959 --> 00:13:49,920
aspects of the old Hollywood I decided

311
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:54,040
to make that film in such a way that the

312
00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:55,399
production design the look of the

313
00:13:55,399 --> 00:13:58,399
picture would be the codified look of

314
00:13:58,399 --> 00:14:02,560
the studio Cinema of musicals um from

315
00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:05,800
the 40s and 50s in Hollywood meaning

316
00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,800
that uh we knew that it was a code um

317
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,800
before before Stanley Don and Jean Kelly

318
00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,399
did New York New York it's a wonderful

319
00:14:14,399 --> 00:14:16,360
town and they shot actually in New York

320
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:18,839
that opening sequence before that uh New

321
00:14:18,839 --> 00:14:21,480
York was usually codified uh interior

322
00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:27,240
sets uh curbs were always um a foot high

323
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,160
and we knew that was not a real New York

324
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:31,880
but we accepted that as a real New York

325
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,720
we accepted the dream the fantasy of

326
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,600
that I wanted to live in that world so

327
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,399
to speak and put that again on the

328
00:14:49,399 --> 00:14:53,480
screen and at the same time

329
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,800
incorporate the new style uh style of

330
00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,079
improvisatory um development of the

331
00:14:59,079 --> 00:15:01,959
story improvisatory work with the actors

332
00:15:01,959 --> 00:15:03,880
and place the two together particularly

333
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,160
in a musical with the use of I tried to

334
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,320
get with Lazlo kov a look of three strip

335
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,079
Technic color was very difficult at the

336
00:15:10,079 --> 00:15:12,480
time I tried to shoot it in 133 but we

337
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,160
had to resort to 166 uh for number

338
00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,160
technical reasons but what was it like

339
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,519
in those films what were they trying to

340
00:15:20,519 --> 00:15:22,360
tell us I always felt in the use of

341
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:23,720
production

342
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,279
design and uh the glorification of the

343
00:15:26,279 --> 00:15:29,440
image so to speak and uh uh the

344
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,040
implication of fantasy uh and I always

345
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,480
said well what happens after the end and

346
00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,639
they go off and it's uh supposedly live

347
00:15:36,639 --> 00:15:39,920
happily ever have to do they and so I

348
00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:41,680
sort of went against the whole the whole

349
00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,000
idea of it by exploring that part of it

350
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,959
exploring um uh whatever truth I can

351
00:15:48,959 --> 00:15:51,399
find at the time and a love relationship

352
00:15:51,399 --> 00:15:52,800
that had to do with two very creative

353
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,279
people um and the ups and downs of that

354
00:15:56,279 --> 00:15:58,240
uh ultimately ending on the reality that

355
00:15:58,240 --> 00:15:59,920
they don't get along

356
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,720
um which was the antithesis of the style

357
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,480
I was showing the style I was I was I

358
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,079
was presenting um we even went as far as

359
00:16:09,079 --> 00:16:11,440
to shoot everything with a 32mm lens to

360
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,399
keep it um in a sense if you see it on

361
00:16:14,399 --> 00:16:16,480
television it should look right it

362
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,600
should look like an old film you know

363
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,920
but um I think stylization was was

364
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:23,560
really important in this codifying I

365
00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:25,279
mean particularly in the style of acting

366
00:16:25,279 --> 00:16:27,759
that was in the foreground and uh when

367
00:16:27,759 --> 00:16:29,920
the time came to to do the exterior

368
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:33,040
Green Brier uh we decided to go all the

369
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:37,360
way on that uh Boris had a way of

370
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,040
Designing things where he would strip

371
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:40,600
away the

372
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,880
unnecessary um and in this case the

373
00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,000
lines the vertical lines of the trees

374
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,959
was what it was all about and the fact

375
00:16:47,959 --> 00:16:50,120
that we know it's a backdrop all right

376
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:51,680
you're upset because I didn't come to

377
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,319
you in person and Say Goodbye right

378
00:16:54,319 --> 00:16:56,480
right which brings up another thing you

379
00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:58,639
don't say goodbye to me I say goodbye to

380
00:16:58,639 --> 00:17:01,279
you in no way shape or form do you say

381
00:17:01,279 --> 00:17:04,120
goodbye to me I say goodbye to you

382
00:17:04,120 --> 00:17:06,640
really it's about the people and when

383
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,520
you look at the two of them the coats

384
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,720
they're wearing all of this uh

385
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,919
ultimately is about the two of them uh

386
00:17:13,919 --> 00:17:16,880
and in a sense

387
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,559
uh I think I may have been trying to get

388
00:17:19,559 --> 00:17:23,000
at why was I so involved with these

389
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,480
people in the films that I saw when I

390
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,679
was younger knowing full well the

391
00:17:27,679 --> 00:17:30,840
background is fake

392
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:32,480
so why don't we just throw it right back

393
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,200
at you and see if you could go with it

394
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,320
um what does that mean you know you can

395
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,400
have someone on a

396
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,600
stage she or

397
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,720
he delivering a monologue just on a

398
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,640
stage in black and yet you see

399
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:49,840
everything what is that

400
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:55,360
about you know there is no set you see

401
00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:58,320
um granted at times I feel you're much

402
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,240
more comfortable in an actual location

403
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,840
or more naturalistic sets but I liked

404
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:05,919
the abstract nature of it because I

405
00:18:05,919 --> 00:18:08,520
wanted to stay with the people and had

406
00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:09,919
the spectacle around them that was

407
00:18:09,919 --> 00:18:14,120
abstract you know um you know this is

408
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:16,600
something that

409
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,039
uh was an experiment in a sense and it

410
00:18:19,039 --> 00:18:20,640
was a time we could experiment that way

411
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,799
it was amazing

1
00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:14,920
when you talk about costum design all

2
00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:16,800
right let's say the block of of

3
00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:18,400
classical Cinema from Hollywood or from

4
00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,560
England from Italy whatever that's

5
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:21,880
costume design you're talking about Pi

6
00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:23,080
toossi you're talking about the house of

7
00:00:23,080 --> 00:00:25,640
trelli in Rome Visconti films and you

8
00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,880
know extraordinary things uh but they're

9
00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:30,960
of a time and place in other words they

10
00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,680
are depicting um uh period and uh there

11
00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,200
there's an aspect of accuracy to say the

12
00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,079
least and some um what's the word a

13
00:00:41,079 --> 00:00:43,559
flourish to that accuracy a touch of the

14
00:00:43,559 --> 00:00:46,559
artist so to speak beyond that um you

15
00:00:46,559 --> 00:00:49,680
know in the case of um Manelli directing

16
00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,320
uh Madame bovy uh they changed the the

17
00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,559
period cuming I believe to be around the

18
00:00:56,559 --> 00:00:58,640
1870s is so in Paris because they felt

19
00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:00,239
they were was more interesting than the

20
00:01:00,239 --> 00:01:02,079
book then the actual period the book was

21
00:01:02,079 --> 00:01:03,760
written about I believe could be the

22
00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,479
1840s and so these things are you know

23
00:01:06,479 --> 00:01:08,320
once you make that kind of decision you

24
00:01:08,320 --> 00:01:10,240
do have drawings from the 1840s you do

25
00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,000
have drawings from the 1870s you do have

26
00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:16,159
pictures from the 19 19 uh 20s um one of

27
00:01:16,159 --> 00:01:17,720
the key things I found like an age of

28
00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:22,079
innocence for example costumes um where

29
00:01:22,079 --> 00:01:25,000
uh it was an upper strata of society was

30
00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:26,920
um I always wanted the the the the

31
00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,240
costumes to feel lived in um that they

32
00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,079
shouldn't look like costumes that was

33
00:01:31,079 --> 00:01:33,399
the idea um particularly the people in

34
00:01:33,399 --> 00:01:36,000
the street the extras or what they call

35
00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,880
now the atmosphere um in the case of

36
00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:40,799
gangs in New York it's different uh in

37
00:01:40,799 --> 00:01:43,320
the gangs in New York we had we had

38
00:01:43,320 --> 00:01:45,640
license to go as far as we wanted with

39
00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:47,439
costumes we got the Daybreak boys and

40
00:01:47,439 --> 00:01:49,119
the swamp Angels they work the river

41
00:01:49,119 --> 00:01:51,840
Luton ships the Frog hul of Shanghai

42
00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:53,759
Sailors down around the bloody angle

43
00:01:53,759 --> 00:01:55,320
Shir Tales was rough for a while but

44
00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:56,719
they become a bunch of Jack rolling

45
00:01:56,719 --> 00:01:58,960
dandies Ling around murderers alley

46
00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:00,880
looking like Chinamen The Gangs did

47
00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:02,280
dress differently gangs dress

48
00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:04,200
differently today each one so they know

49
00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,520
each other they could see that person's

50
00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:08,759
wearing that they can see the block away

51
00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:10,360
you know all right be careful there's

52
00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,280
this this group coming and uh those

53
00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,360
persons this person wears a suspenders a

54
00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,599
certain way they call them gises um the

55
00:02:18,599 --> 00:02:20,360
bowry boys behaved a certain way they

56
00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,440
all had their own uniforms there's a

57
00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:23,920
plug ugli they from somewhere deep in

58
00:02:23,920 --> 00:02:25,680
the old country got their own language

59
00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:27,319
no one understands what they're saying

60
00:02:27,319 --> 00:02:29,239
they love to fight the cops and the

61
00:02:29,239 --> 00:02:31,519
night walkers rap Pickers roll and they

62
00:02:31,519 --> 00:02:32,959
work on their backs and kill with their

63
00:02:32,959 --> 00:02:35,160
hands they're so scurvy on me to plug

64
00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,120
ugli to talk to them but who knows what

65
00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:38,640
they're saying we could take license

66
00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:43,519
with that uh in the case of um uh uh the

67
00:02:43,519 --> 00:02:45,680
very few uh characters in the film with

68
00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,720
the upper classes were more uh uh

69
00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,879
conventional but everything else uh you

70
00:02:51,879 --> 00:02:53,879
can you could let you could let your

71
00:02:53,879 --> 00:02:57,400
your mind go

72
00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,120
of course uh films like Mean Streets or

73
00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,640
um taxi driver or uh

74
00:03:07,640 --> 00:03:11,239
or going up to um after hours things

75
00:03:11,239 --> 00:03:13,280
like that it's a different kind of uh

76
00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:17,480
costume design um in other words it uh

77
00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,080
shouldn't be confused I think with the

78
00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:24,200
custom designers and uh of the uh

79
00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,239
classical Cinema it's something else one

80
00:03:26,239 --> 00:03:28,280
has to understand the world around them

81
00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,760
uh and the the world that they're

82
00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,040
depicting um and so in a way a custume

83
00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,760
designer has to understand for character

84
00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,680
what that character could be wearing um

85
00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:42,400
where that character would shop for

86
00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,120
clothes where that character would

87
00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:45,400
inherit

88
00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,439
clothes certain colors that would look

89
00:03:47,439 --> 00:03:49,200
right on the character certain colors

90
00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,159
that would right on the character but

91
00:03:51,159 --> 00:03:52,799
change because the actor is somewhat

92
00:03:52,799 --> 00:03:54,239
different so you have to rearrange it

93
00:03:54,239 --> 00:03:56,599
somehow or rework it rethink it and so

94
00:03:56,599 --> 00:03:58,200
you need somebody who understands

95
00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:02,280
contemporary um uh uh expression in

96
00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,319
costuming uh expression in dressing

97
00:04:05,319 --> 00:04:07,519
whether you go from Armani to uh oh I

98
00:04:07,519 --> 00:04:11,319
don't know what to me today uh people

99
00:04:11,319 --> 00:04:15,959
wear those um uh uh down jackets black

100
00:04:15,959 --> 00:04:17,479
and they from far away it looks like

101
00:04:17,479 --> 00:04:21,000
those garbage bags that uh so the style

102
00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,320
is is gone in a way so um it's more

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practical but it's a different uh

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statement it's a very different

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statement about who you are and what the

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world is and one has to know that one

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really has to know that and so uh

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costume designers of of a modern film

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really comes from and it always does

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whether it's period or modern but even

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more so with the modern now comes from

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the character always from the character

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what that character would she or he

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would wear um and particularly uh when

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they would wear it um what's appropriate

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for that world and if you want to take

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it and move I'm not talking about

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fantasy films I'm not talking about uh

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period pieces I'm talking about present

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day uh

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Cinema I go back to Mean Streets for

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example I'll get the costumes I got the

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costumes with Harvey and with David

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proval and Richard ranus and everybody

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and Amy Robinson we all worked together

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and I got costumes I specifically knew

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what I wanted Bob knew kind of what he

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wanted but he found that little shirt I

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think it was a a knit shirt with a uh a

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little uh chain that you pull down a

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little uh zipper chain which was popular

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for like uh 20 minutes I think in uh

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1969 or something and he thought this

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was good character thing I said yeah and

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then one day I was talking to him down

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in his Loft he had a LOFT at the time

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and he came out of the back room and he

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had this little hat on and he said uh I

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think this hat and I said that's

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absolutely right that's the Hat

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CU he understood having spent a lot of

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time in the Lower East Side when I was

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growing up around 16 years old we kind

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of knew each other uh he knew the people

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and he knew

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uh he knew um the culture you know and

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so uh the hat made me understand that he

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he really understood everything now I

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think over the years he said he didn't

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do that but I know he did

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it I know he put the Hat on okay so uh

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because and I said H you know whatever

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he's going to suggest I think he's he's

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on he's on to something accurate and we

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know it and he knew the people that

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somehow the picture was written about

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and that sort of thing when you go all

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the way down to um Taxi Driver the

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jacket of the uh King Kong company

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whatever the uses of Browns brown plaids

161
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and Away uh beiges um all the way

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through to Raging Bull Raging Bull is

163
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interesting because ultimately and it

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was his passion to do Jake lamada But

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ultimately um I watched him sort of over

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a period of a couple of years between

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his working out that he would do

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especially when he was doing New York

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New York he was always working out uh

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for the possib possibility doing this

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film which which included boxing you

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know Raging Bull and so he would um uh

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work it in such a way with photographs

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of Jake and the people around him um the

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the curling of the hair the the way the

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hair would um the way the hair would lay

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um a different times in Jake's life

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testing I'd say 20 to 30 different noses

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uh um it's not exaggeration because the

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noses Chang because of the fights you

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know but what looked like the right nose

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for that sort of makeup Prosthetics and

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that sort of thing that wouldn't look

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like a prosthetic and so ultimately that

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all came together when we started to

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play around dick Bruno and all of us uh

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playing around with the costumes racks

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were brought in of um existing costumes

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and they call today vintage basically

190
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it's used clothes you know and uh period

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pieces you know uh uh and I remember

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we're here in 58th Street somewhere and

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I forget I was in a uh um Production

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Office of some kind there was a rack of

195
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clothes he'd be putting on jackets and

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putting on jackets it was an exhausting

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experience because we were trying so

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many different things we knew that

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ultimately he didn't wear as many suits

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as the other people did in the film and

201
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that sort of thing but what did he

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lounge around in you know uh and he

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suddenly picked up this jacket and put

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it on it was a jacket 3/4 length uh

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black and it had a white um top to it um

206
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and we looked at it and it was strong

207
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enough and off enough and made a

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statement a character statement and he

209
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said uh we looked at each other and he

210
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said look at this I said yeah that's it

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that was

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it and that's the basis of that

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character that jacket which he uses in a

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few scenes in the beginning especially

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when he uh talks to um Kath Mor arity

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tells her to come out and join him in

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the car

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whatever but there was something about

219
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the boldness of it and maybe the

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shoulders maybe the shoulders I don't

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know but it felt

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right king of comedy was really

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interesting because king of comedy we

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tried something different that Paul

225
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Zimmerman script uh something I didn't

226
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want to do again but he convinced me

227
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over the years because I wasn't aware of

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the element of celebrity at that point

229
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at which Bob was he became aware of it

230
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right around the time he DET taex D

231
00:10:04,839 --> 00:10:06,880
because he had done Godfather too and he

232
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became aware of a certain kind of uh uh

233
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his relationship to the people around

234
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him started to change or people would

235
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come up to him in the street in a

236
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different way um and this whole

237
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strangeness about uh uh The Cult of

238
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celebrity uh and so by the time we did

239
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Raging Bull I began to sense what what

240
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they were talking about um and I was

241
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still on the cusp of it in a sense I

242
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still

243
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uh felt in a way like one of the U

244
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cultish fans so to speak of a Jerry or

245
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uh The Tonight Show uh New York

246
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television uh filmmakers and that sort

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of thing but at the same time trying to

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work as a a filmmaker so that you're on

249
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both sides of it um and so with Rupert

250
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pupkin uh which is a name I think Paul

251
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zimman got from a uh a taxi driver I

252
00:11:01,519 --> 00:11:04,279
think he took it off somebody he was in

253
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a car and taxi and saw the name he

254
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thought it was really good with rert we

255
00:11:08,959 --> 00:11:10,920
just didn't know what he'd wear we

256
00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:12,600
honestly didn't know dick Bruno is a

257
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,720
great guy he was our uh costume designer

258
00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,360
and Dick and I and Bob we

259
00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,720
were uh up on 59 we knew that we should

260
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go to certain places on 47th Street on

261
00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:26,800
48th Street 58th Street maybe I think no

262
00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,560
not 58 but 53rd Broadway 7th Avenue that

263
00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:32,240
was still very much the brill building

264
00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:34,680
was still very much Broadway and all the

265
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film making centers were really up up up

266
00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:38,839
at that in that place now they're all

267
00:11:38,839 --> 00:11:43,639
downtown um in U Tribeca Soho but in uh

268
00:11:43,639 --> 00:11:46,600
the the 60s and 7050s 60s and 70s it was

269
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,880
really um between 47 Street the screen

270
00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,440
building the brill building and um the

271
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sense of Broadway Danny Rose the sense

272
00:11:55,399 --> 00:11:58,720
of uh you know uh clothing stores that

273
00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:03,360
sold to Lounge singers you know this is

274
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,720
they had comics from the borch belt

275
00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,160
would buy the clothes there so it's like

276
00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:10,680
really Showbiz but on a real

277
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hardworking day-to-day foot soldier uh

278
00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:17,880
World in a way um and they'd have all

279
00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,160
the 8 by10 Stills in their glossies

280
00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,600
signed to the different store owners

281
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thanks for everything that sort of thing

282
00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,920
from Milton Burl or you know um movie

283
00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,680
stars uh but primarily

284
00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:33,560
New York Comics New York performers um

285
00:12:33,560 --> 00:12:36,639
and so we were walking around I think

286
00:12:36,639 --> 00:12:39,760
around uh Central Park South or whatever

287
00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:41,240
we had just gone from one store to

288
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another and we weren't quite sure we

289
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said what does he we ultimately and we

290
00:12:44,639 --> 00:12:46,320
were just narrowing in we had some

291
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,279
thoughts we had some thoughts it was a

292
00:12:48,279 --> 00:12:50,600
little easier with Jerry Lewis and and a

293
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,920
couple of the others but with rert what

294
00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,040
is he you know and as we walking by

295
00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:56,680
there was a store I think it may have

296
00:12:56,680 --> 00:12:58,160
been on Seventh Avenue or Broadway I'm

297
00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,040
not quite sure it was called Lou magram

298
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,360
shirt maker to the

299
00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,040
stars and a small storefront and we

300
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:08,199
always used to see it you know we'd

301
00:13:08,199 --> 00:13:09,959
always walk by and strip me the Shir the

302
00:13:09,959 --> 00:13:12,959
shirts were you know interesting looking

303
00:13:12,959 --> 00:13:14,920
uh they had a kind of a Showbiz feel to

304
00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,880
them um a kind of

305
00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,360
um flourish so to speak big wide you

306
00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,800
know bow ties all kinds of things fluff

307
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,160
uh ruffled shirts and we looked in the

308
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,120
window and we were stunned we saw this

309
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,040
mannequin and the mannequin was wearing

310
00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,399
um a sear sucker um blue and white

311
00:13:35,399 --> 00:13:38,560
striped suit three-piece I believe um

312
00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:43,199
navy blue um or dark blue uh shirt with

313
00:13:43,199 --> 00:13:46,920
a white collar a yellow knit tie and a

314
00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,959
kind of a white leather uh

315
00:13:49,959 --> 00:13:53,360
slipons and Not only was the costume

316
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,000
right but the face was right the hair on

317
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,759
the mannequin was right the mustache was

318
00:13:58,759 --> 00:13:59,560
right

319
00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:01,160
in fact the mustache

320
00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,519
was a fraction of um an inch shorter on

321
00:14:05,519 --> 00:14:07,880
one side than the other and we looked at

322
00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,079
him we looked at each other said that's

323
00:14:10,079 --> 00:14:14,079
him that's him even the hair is him so

324
00:14:14,079 --> 00:14:17,920
that's what we did I tell you

325
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:22,600
boy hi Eliza good seeing you ger good

326
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,920
seeing you Jerry don't get

327
00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,279
up ah boy I'll tell you every time time

328
00:14:29,279 --> 00:14:30,600
you come back from a tour I don't know

329
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,160
what it is but there must be something

330
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,199
in the air or the tour it really becomes

331
00:14:34,199 --> 00:14:36,639
you it's like you become rejuvenated I

332
00:14:36,639 --> 00:14:38,240
don't know what it is isn't that so

333
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,399
everybody you have to see it came out of

334
00:14:40,399 --> 00:14:42,160
that part of the world at that time in

335
00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,079
New York was show business but it wasn't

336
00:14:45,079 --> 00:14:46,920
the necessarily the successful Show

337
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:48,199
Business it was just show business

338
00:14:48,199 --> 00:14:50,360
because you had no other choice you you

339
00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:51,440
wouldn't get out of it you always

340
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:53,480
looking for you know the big break and

341
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,839
it didn't come maybe you know and um for

342
00:14:57,839 --> 00:15:01,600
us uh it was uh uh it came out of the

343
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,759
very how should I put it it came out of

344
00:15:04,759 --> 00:15:08,199
um the actual environment that the film

345
00:15:08,199 --> 00:15:09,800
takes place in that the story takes

346
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:11,800
place in so it wasn't something imposed

347
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,120
on the environment

1
00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:13,320
[Music]

2
00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,960
there's so much to know that you don't

3
00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:20,160
know um and I always found this to be uh

4
00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:25,320
something uh about film making um no

5
00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,000
matter what the technology is um you

6
00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,000
shouldn't be cowed by the technology you

7
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,200
shouldn't be cowed by the uh the uh

8
00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,079
process in a sense you should have um

9
00:00:38,079 --> 00:00:42,000
the kind of passion and bravery and um

10
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,079
um ignorance I think to a certain extent

11
00:00:44,079 --> 00:00:47,559
of wanting to get something done um you

12
00:00:47,559 --> 00:00:49,760
know because if you really thought about

13
00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:51,160
making a picture if you really thought

14
00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:52,760
about it step by step you never you

15
00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:54,920
never do it it's always a situation

16
00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:56,440
where you wind up like three days into

17
00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:57,960
shooting or so or two days and you you

18
00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,039
say what have I done what was I thinking

19
00:01:00,039 --> 00:01:02,359
but um you have to do it when it came to

20
00:01:02,359 --> 00:01:04,559
light I never really understood light I

21
00:01:04,559 --> 00:01:06,720
still really don't um I don't really

22
00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,240
need to I don't think I never really

23
00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,560
became something that was uh prominent

24
00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,680
um uh in designing scenes I uh and I

25
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think a lot of that had to do took me

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years to to understand a lot of that had

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to do where I grew up I grew up in the

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actually the tenements uh and on

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Elizabeth Street in the 19 late 40s or

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through the 50s the 60s and basically

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all I needed to know there was uh

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daylight and

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night yeah I didn't really uh it was

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dark it was dark there was maybe a light

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bulb in a hallway yeah um it wasn't

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complaining about any deprivation of

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Nature's Beauty it was where you were

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and it had its own Beauty you know uh

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yes there's a Nuance that I did learn uh

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on a daylight in a daylight situation

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there could be clouds and that could be

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sun I got that but aside from that where

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the sun is and where things to be shot

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at a certain time of day I really don't

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I still don't know I still don't know um

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uh maybe that's why I like a lot of

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British cinematographers too because the

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overcast in the in their country um but

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in any event uh I uh learned to um work

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very closely with the directors of

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Photography over the years um and in

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designing the shots um they would add

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the element of light I would change I

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would work it uh I began to understand

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something about it um and so um uh this

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is something that I think can be if not

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learned um can be uh

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coexist with the uh necessity of making

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the film you deal with it you if you

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don't know something ask try it you know

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learn as much you may forget afterwards

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but you learn a little bit each time a

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little more more but it's something that

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shouldn't stop you if there are certain

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elements of uh the actual production or

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how to get an image on screen or how to

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tell a story um you'll find your way

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through Freddy's work I had seen as a

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cinematographer but also he was the

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camera operator on Tales of Hoffman and

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a couple of other films of Paul

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pressburger so he came out of that group

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and got to know him a bit um I was there

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the 91d award for Glory and said he he

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was looking for a job and so I thought

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of possibly working with him on um this

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film Cape Fear which was a uh um a film

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I hadn't plan to

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make and uh was an attempt at trying to

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U make a a extend or enrich a genre so

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to speak or or revise a genre possibly I

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don't know but in any event um Freddy

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agreed to do it and Freddy had um he had

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a set of five

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lenses that he used um on the Innocence

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for example like I think I think on Sons

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and lovers I'm not quite sure but it

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must have been but in any event

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certainly the Innocence um which is a

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beautiful film U that Jack Clayton

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directed based on turn of the the turn

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of the screw Henry James Deborah Carr um

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extraordinary focus in the film in black

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and white scope black and white

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anamorphic but extraordinary deep focal

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length in this picture and um there's

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Deborah Carr walking through the um

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Halls of this Victorian

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house um dark and she's wearing a black

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a black dress which is very full but

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everything's in crisp crisp focus and I

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asked him uh how did he achieve that and

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he said he shot at

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f11 which meant that it was the smallest

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opening uh and uh that means means he

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had to pump in more light and I didn't

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fully understand this until later on

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Cape Fear when I would ask for certain

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scenes to be even more focused in terms

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of the characters this character and

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focused with that one and this one he

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said I he would always tell me well I

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think I can give you what you want if

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you give me a few moments which we

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[Music]

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did and that's when I fully understood

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um the impact of U the intensity of

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light to focus of the screen and focus

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of the

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image imagine Greg Tolen from in best

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years of Our Lives a citizen C all the

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deep vocal length work must have

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Incorporated extraordinary uh lighting

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um the heat of the lighting the

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intensity and uh I mean naturally you're

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talking to you know somebody here who

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I'm I'm speaking from a different

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experience I I the impulse for me to

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make movies was uh the New York

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independent cinema cavetti sherley Clark

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very often um a number of people who did

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those films I think Barett Bryant shot a

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cool world very often we using available

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light this was inspired from the French

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new wave that sort of thing um available

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light is isn't always available light by

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the way there's always some fill or

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something like that but in any event it

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was lighter equipment uh I didn't

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understand the necessity of arites and

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the power of the heat for Focus um and

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so on Cape Fear that that was a a

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revelation he had a sense of

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um transforming the image um there was a

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moment in uh uh in other words a shot of

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an eye I would say a shot of two eyes

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person looking uh

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um there a shot of two eyes unless you

149
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interpret it he had one point I remember

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very

151
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clearly I designed this action sequence

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at the end of the film um in a storm at

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at Cape Fear the actual Cape Fear boats

154
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flying around house boats and that sort

155
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of thing but prior to the the the boat

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breaking as's Nick Noti staring through

157
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the window through Venetian blinds um of

158
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a storm tossed house boat of his wife

159
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played by Jessica L being terrorized by

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um Robert Dao's Max Katy um and I said

161
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he's he's out there he's looking through

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the window there's penan blinds we're on

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the eyes and there's um rain hitting the

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the window so it's streaking and that

165
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sort of thing and we lined up the shot

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in in um anamorphic and two eyes and I

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told Freddy it it doesn't feel right it

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doesn't it's just a shot of two eyes

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looking through a window

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and so he said one

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eye I said what do you mean he said just

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show one

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eye when he did that it took on some

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other aspect and that is that uh it was

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like something from the ocean depths one

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you didn't quite know what it was at

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first and you realize it's an eye

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covered with raindrops covered with

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Shadow light all kinds of things so that

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it it it it created a mystery

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um an understanding of how to tell a

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story uh with pictures that was

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extraordinary for that for that mood and

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tone um and from the one eye we tracked

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out I believe but uh this is the kind of

186
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thing uh uh was really kind of a

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learning experience for me and I I also

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kind of bothered him a lot because I

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would ask him about how he shot certain

190
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things in his films and then say well we

191
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have to get going and goes well you give

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me a few minutes and stop asking me

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questions I could work so um but he was

194
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extremely um uh gentlemanly about it um

195
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and the uh it reminds me of the story

196
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and I've just been telling some people

197
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about this for a while now but he was

198
00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,519
the camera operator on this uh Valiant

199
00:09:13,519 --> 00:09:17,040
effort to do a u a version of Moby Dick

200
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that John Houston did in

201
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1956 but on that film um Freddy was a

202
00:09:23,079 --> 00:09:25,440
camera operator and he was told at one

203
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,079
point by Houston to uh go and get a few

204
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shots of whales um in the North Sea and

205
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obviously sending to the spot where the

206
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whales are and the fins come up and that

207
00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,519
sort of thing and you know three strip

208
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Technicolor big camera and he brought it

209
00:09:42,399 --> 00:09:44,160
back uh he went there shot it brought it

210
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,800
back to London they screened it and he

211
00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,200
looked at Houston and Houston said

212
00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,880
well it's a shot of a

213
00:09:53,839 --> 00:09:57,440
whale right it had very little

214
00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,000
interpretation and so um

215
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,600
this is the lesson I learned that it's

216
00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:03,279
still it's simply saying okay we're

217
00:10:03,279 --> 00:10:04,640
going to get a shot of the door are

218
00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,240
we're going to get a shot of the car

219
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,040
well what's the angle what's the light

220
00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,320
um is it moving is it not moving

221
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,000
um I've seen that sometimes where I

222
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,720
start to uh work on an image

223
00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,760
um of a telephone for example infinite

224
00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:24,160
amount of ways to do that I'm talking

225
00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,640
about a landline uh infinite amount of

226
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ways and it needs a lot of thought you

227
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know

228
00:10:30,519 --> 00:10:32,440
which leads to the use of inserts which

229
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leads to Bron and Hitchcock and a number

230
00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,440
of others but uh um with Freddy it was a

231
00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:41,519
very very interesting experience because

232
00:10:41,519 --> 00:10:46,680
it took me to the um the Old Pros in a

233
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way as opposed to other directors of

234
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Photography i' been working with up to

235
00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,959
that time um not to to uh not saying

236
00:10:54,959 --> 00:10:58,040
that not to to say that one was um

237
00:10:58,040 --> 00:10:59,760
superior to the other it's a different

238
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thing

1
00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:13,200
[Music]

2
00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,639
I felt that I had to learn how to make a

3
00:00:15,639 --> 00:00:21,000
picture faster cheaper um and still have

4
00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,840
um still have the energy in the film in

5
00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:26,640
fact go further with a certain kind of

6
00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:28,160
camera move and cutting and this sort of

7
00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,199
thing and I first met um Michael

8
00:00:30,199 --> 00:00:32,759
ballhouse in um having had gone through

9
00:00:32,759 --> 00:00:35,600
having uh had gone through uh a series

10
00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:36,879
of films up about

11
00:00:36,879 --> 00:00:40,079
1981 uh King up to king of comedy uh and

12
00:00:40,079 --> 00:00:41,280
sort of the bottom fell out of

13
00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,760
everything after that um but I did meet

14
00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,239
Michael when we were

15
00:00:47,239 --> 00:00:50,079
preparing the last notation of Christ in

16
00:00:50,079 --> 00:00:53,039
1983 and i' seen his fast Benda films

17
00:00:53,039 --> 00:00:55,559
that he that he had shot and I wanted

18
00:00:55,559 --> 00:01:00,280
the a sense of um

19
00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,000
Freedom with the camera again and

20
00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,080
freedom with light um in a sense I was I

21
00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,640
felt that with the Bigger Productions

22
00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:09,880
from

23
00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,280
uh as as as this not the cam that's not

24
00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:14,600
the directors of

25
00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,479
photography's um issue this had to do

26
00:01:17,479 --> 00:01:19,560
with the how a film is made the amount

27
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of people the amount of equipment I

28
00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:22,600
wanted to get something trimmer and

29
00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,920
faster you know um and so I felt I

30
00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,560
should go back to uh independent Style

31
00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,000
film making and uh I saw the fast Bender

32
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pictures and Then followed up on that

33
00:01:35,119 --> 00:01:37,119
with meeting Michael and we were going

34
00:01:37,119 --> 00:01:39,360
to make Last Temptation um but by the

35
00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,200
end of the year the film fell through

36
00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,200
and we were out in the diaspora so to

37
00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,040
speak out of Hollywood everywhere and

38
00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,920
couldn't get a picture made but um

39
00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,159
finally it was time to start all over

40
00:01:50,159 --> 00:01:53,439
again I felt and we stumbled upon I

41
00:01:53,439 --> 00:01:55,799
think it was uh Amy Robinson and Griffin

42
00:01:55,799 --> 00:01:58,119
Dunn gave me the script of after

43
00:01:58,119 --> 00:02:00,600
hours and so um

44
00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:02,159
um I thought this was a good opportunity

45
00:02:02,159 --> 00:02:04,520
to uh try to learn how to make a picture

46
00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,200
again uh and also a project of course

47
00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,679
that I really responded to because of

48
00:02:09,679 --> 00:02:12,920
the nature of the of the story in the

49
00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:15,680
character being out of his element and

50
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being in a place where he couldn't

51
00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:18,959
believe anyone or anything and he sort

52
00:02:18,959 --> 00:02:21,959
of Trapped um and I thought this was

53
00:02:21,959 --> 00:02:24,640
that's the way I felt myself at the time

54
00:02:24,640 --> 00:02:29,080
um and so uh I called on Michael again

55
00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:30,560
there and that's the first time we

56
00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,519
really had the ability to work together

57
00:02:32,519 --> 00:02:36,120
we shot it in 40 nights um averaging

58
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about 25 to 26 setups a night and so

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Michael um would be on the set and it

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was you know downtown somewhere and the

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old Soho which at that time was really

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isolated at night there was nobody there

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uh and I'd get there and I'd be kind of

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grumpy um concerned about getting

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everything done uh proving to myself if

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I can get uh something shot uh in a more

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efficient manner that still had

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everything I wanted not quite sure of

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this particular scene and uh he would

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look at me and says Ah Ah but tonight

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tonight we do the shot that begins on

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the chair tracks up goes around the face

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comes over to the telephone goes to the

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Juke Box says oh you're right you're

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right yeah yeah that's something so we

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don't do it first no no of course not

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we're going to do it a little later

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because I have certain lighting issues

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okay okay but he gave me something to

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look forward to and brought back the

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excitement and the love of the process

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you know he said look this we're GNA

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have some fun tonight I mean and fun I

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use that word fun for many different

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things one could have fun at uh say well

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we're going to have some fun and ironic

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tone of course but it really was

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bringing back to me

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um the uh energy and the excitement of

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film making that he reins stilled in me

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and I remind you I had design all these

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shots and drawings and uh diagrams U uh

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smaller story boards in a way on the

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edge of the script rather than in bigger

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drawings uh but bous studied them and

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made his own

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versions um trans transferred them to

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his script and made his and he studied

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the shots studied the understanding

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tried to understand how the camera would

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move the use of the lens which lens size

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lens all sorts of things n then

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transferred over to uh Last Temptation

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Of Christ we were shooting in Morocco u

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a very very very lowbudget film the

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whole picture was designed on paper

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mainly because uh that's the way I

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always design uh film as much as

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possible but even more so in that case

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because I knew that if I had the chance

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to make the picture it was going to be

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very um a very low budget and I had to

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shoot very quickly so I had to know

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exactly what I wanted in terms of the

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framing camera movements editing and

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that sort of thing

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the first day of shooting we knew it uh

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we understood that it was going to be a

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an arduous shoot um and after the second

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setup where just trying to set up a

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tripod and in the ground and things

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falling and uh he looked at us and said

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well this is the way this film is going

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to be every Movement we make everything

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we set up is going to be hard to do so

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just accept it now which uh which we did

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which we did and we worked as uh

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furiously as possible um and later on

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too at one point things were so

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difficult and I was so

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uh in despair about uh losing time and

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not getting the right amount of extras

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and this sort of thing I and I was just

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sitting there at one point I think about

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eight weeks into shooting saying uh well

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I said I maybe I should have waited

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maybe I should have waited to have more

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money in the budget maybe I should have

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waited and knowing I had waited six

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years seven years you know uh in order

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to take the opportunity to make the film

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then at a very very low budget and he

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said to me no no he said this film has

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to be made this way um the um

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arduousness um the

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physicality um and the if one could term

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it uh suffering that had to be done

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that's the nature of this work of this

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particular film not that any film is

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luxurious in that way but um this really

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um became more than making a film it

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became a a life experience and he was

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want to point that out to me we had one

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company move from

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maresh to um mares we shot outside mares

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a little village called umran about 25

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minutes outside of

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maresh then we had one company moved to

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a city called mcness which gave a flavor

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of an

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urban

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center suggesting Jerusalem we thought

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um and so uh that was one big company

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move and that meant it was we couldn't

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afford a third we wanted to go to

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another place wasat but we couldn't do

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it and so um the only thing was that we

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found a quarry uh for the crucifixion

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that um was really very very good we

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thought and um we wanted to keep the

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crucifixion for the end of the film The

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shooting um but we had to shoot it in

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the middle and um in order to take

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advantage of this this

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location and I had designed and I

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remember very clearly 75

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shots whether they were notes or whether

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they were drawings didn't matter they

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were designed that figured 25 shots a

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day right now it's a very hard scene to

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Stage um

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but we were under such uh uh pressure

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particularly because we were gone days

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over schedule and running out of money

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um that we had to make that move at that

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time and I remember mem and my ad and my

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producer sitting in a small room um five

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days before uh shooting or four days

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before shooting the crucifixion scene

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and um going through all the shots and

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saying okay instead of three days for

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these 75 shots we have

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two

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so what could we

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lose and it became 50 shots 25 and 25

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and we got them all and how he did that

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was uh referring back to something he

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did with fast Bender in particular film

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called beware the holy [ __ ] where I

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think a few days into shooting fast

201
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Bender fired the lead actor um and then

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took the role himself and so they had to

203
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re-shoot everything that they had shot

204
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for those those three days in one day

205
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and

206
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night and uh how they worked it out was

207
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um timing it so that for example in the

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crucifixion scene um if the first shot

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we would give 10 minutes um the fourth

210
00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,800
shot was a little more complicated 15 if

211
00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,680
it goes to 17 we have to move on accept

212
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what we have and move on um there was

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00:09:24,959 --> 00:09:30,040
one shot uh uh where uh William to cries

214
00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,120
out you know father father why have you

215
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forsaken me I think and the camera

216
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twists and turns he said that's that's

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45

218
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minutes and that's how we did it that's

219
00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,079
how we did it we're just literally

220
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within that 10 minutes I used to call it

221
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quality time we'd be intent on getting

222
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what needed to get um or if not shooting

223
00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,800
an extra two takes squeezing it in to to

224
00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,519
to figure out later uh certain elements

225
00:10:08,519 --> 00:10:10,160
of the different takes which want to go

226
00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,040
with uh in the editing that was a a very

227
00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,839
uh uh logical and a very uh also

228
00:10:17,839 --> 00:10:19,760
passionate way of going about it saying

229
00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:21,800
we're going to get it but we'll have to

230
00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,680
combine these 75 shots into 50 and we'll

231
00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:28,440
have 25 setups a day or 26 we can do it

232
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uh and the thing was was like a uh

233
00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:33,320
Commando group uh we got there in the

234
00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,920
dark and the moment light broke we

235
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started

236
00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,440
shooting immediately um and it was like

237
00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:41,800
being in

238
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,920
a like a battle of some kind very very

239
00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,000
physical he always made it clear uh to

240
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:54,200
me uh about the um um the value of what

241
00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:55,800
we were doing in that particular shot or

242
00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,800
that particular day you know um and so

243
00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,160
uh what to go for what to emphasize what

244
00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,279
I mean is what to go for what to uh when

245
00:11:05,279 --> 00:11:07,600
I say go for means where to put the

246
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,639
energy um and what to look forward to he

247
00:11:10,639 --> 00:11:13,959
was very clear about um in a case like

248
00:11:13,959 --> 00:11:16,040
that he didn't really say this is the

249
00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:17,600
way this film has to be made but he kept

250
00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,160
saying we will make

251
00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,560
it I kept I kept knowing that everything

252
00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:24,440
was being taken away or the script was

253
00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:26,480
being changed and there were lots of

254
00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:27,839
production problems but he look at me

255
00:11:27,839 --> 00:11:29,839
and say we're going to finish it

256
00:11:29,839 --> 00:11:32,399
we're going to make it and whether we

257
00:11:32,399 --> 00:11:34,000
did or

258
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,920
not ultimately doesn't matter but it's

259
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,560
how we got through um each day of the

260
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skirmishes and the battles to make the

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picture

1
00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:13,320
[Music]

2
00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:14,599
it's really good if you have people

3
00:00:14,599 --> 00:00:18,359
around you that you trust um uh which is

4
00:00:18,359 --> 00:00:21,279
a a basic element in in the film making

5
00:00:21,279 --> 00:00:25,480
process or any anything really and uh uh

6
00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:27,160
and goes for any film you're making the

7
00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:28,760
trust is important between your director

8
00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:30,920
photography you your assistant director

9
00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,360
co-producers that sort of thing um what

10
00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,520
I mean is that if it's a passion project

11
00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,280
and everyone's invested in it the way

12
00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,600
you are um that's really rewarding

13
00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,680
that's uh something very special you

14
00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:46,480
feel you've gone through some sort of

15
00:00:46,480 --> 00:00:48,640
experience together I've been lucky over

16
00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,440
the years to I've had a few of those uh

17
00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,640
just recently with silence for example

18
00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:55,559
mean streets to a certain extent

19
00:00:55,559 --> 00:00:58,000
although a lot of that were a lot of the

20
00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,600
crew a main streets I learned how put a

21
00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,199
film together through Roger corman's

22
00:01:02,199 --> 00:01:03,760
crew but they felt the energy of the

23
00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:05,560
whole thing and they knew uh somehow

24
00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:09,640
because my enthusiasm and and uh uh just

25
00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:11,680
passion for making the picture they kind

26
00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,400
of were infected by it in a way um but I

27
00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,799
think um primarily it's uh it's great

28
00:01:18,799 --> 00:01:23,040
when um the crew is tight enough and

29
00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:25,520
like a real working unit that feels that

30
00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:27,600
they're creating something special you

31
00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,840
know um with you uh there's there's an

32
00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:32,960
alternative of course and that is that

33
00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:35,119
uh it becomes something impersonal it's

34
00:01:35,119 --> 00:01:38,200
a bigger bigger set a bigger situation

35
00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,799
but still even there people are hard

36
00:01:40,799 --> 00:01:42,799
doing very very hard work whether it's

37
00:01:42,799 --> 00:01:45,600
uh uh making sure the uh the rain

38
00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:47,560
machine works perfectly or that sort of

39
00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,040
thing um but as long as you have your

40
00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:55,399
inner core of of key people sharing that

41
00:01:55,399 --> 00:01:59,159
desire to make this film sharing it and

42
00:01:59,159 --> 00:02:00,560
ideally

43
00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,759
um not necessarily

44
00:02:03,759 --> 00:02:08,080
overdoing their role so to speak um but

45
00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:09,800
pulling it all together to help you get

46
00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:11,959
what you want or what you think you want

47
00:02:11,959 --> 00:02:13,239
you know because very often as I say

48
00:02:13,239 --> 00:02:14,800
when you get it to the set or when you

49
00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:16,800
get it to location and you've designed

50
00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:17,879
something and you're working with the

51
00:02:17,879 --> 00:02:19,239
actress and things start changing

52
00:02:19,239 --> 00:02:23,280
sometimes you you lose your um uh sense

53
00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,480
of exactly what the shot should be

54
00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:33,959
if the people around you you're key

55
00:02:33,959 --> 00:02:36,480
people understand what you want based on

56
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,160
conversations before you started

57
00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,080
shooting reading the script designs all

58
00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,319
kinds of um uh especially if you're on a

59
00:02:43,319 --> 00:02:44,599
location where people are working

60
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together eating together and that sort

61
00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:48,879
of thing you begin to get a sense of who

62
00:02:48,879 --> 00:02:52,959
you could depend on and um

63
00:02:52,959 --> 00:02:55,120
uh they would be able to tell you and

64
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help you through the hard times really

65
00:02:57,519 --> 00:03:00,040
uh so this is something um that that's

66
00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,159
really um a key factor it's a core unit

67
00:03:04,159 --> 00:03:06,200
now when I say a passion project that

68
00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:07,599
core unit could be the whole crew

69
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because it's a smaller crew usually it's

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a lower budget it's a different thing

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but when you're on a bigger picture that

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small core is really your your life core

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your Lifeline um I come from a time too

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when there was a lot of experimenting

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with the movie making where we actually

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thought at times although I don't know I

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didn't try it but bet uh in the 60s

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there were experiments in making um

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what they call Collective decisions

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Collective film making as the Director

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you can't score points with false

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modesty you have to assume the

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responsibility of being the one who

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makes those guiding

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decisions but you also have to remember

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that every single person on your your

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set plays a role in making your film you

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need them you need them you know and you

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need their dedication you need their

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expertise don't forget that's what

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Stanley kurick said they said what is

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the um what's the hardest part of

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directing he says getting out of the car

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in the

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morning because once you get out of the

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car you're besieged with questions and

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usually you get out of the car there are

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problems and like I used to tell my ad I

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say get out of the car look at them and

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say aren't you smiling no I said what is

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it I said well what can't we do today

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you know and you just get used to that

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you get used to what it is is that um uh

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it's it's true getting out of the car

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begins a process I'd always said I

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wanted to do a uh an article for and

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these days I guess would be online or

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something um but just I have a little

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recorder on me taping all the questions

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that you're asked including uh um have

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you got uh your right shoes uh what

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would you want do you want coffee now um

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uh an actor coming up to you talking

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about I really disagree in this line at

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this point changes the entire character

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maybe I shouldn't have done this and I

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know it goes on and on to the biggest uh

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uh problems to the smallest minuti and

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tiniest Manu and uh I I always wanted to

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do it but um that's why it's always

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advisable to have less questions Le less

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questions the better during the day

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unnecessary ones should be eliminated um

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and you have to cut through all of that

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cut through all of them all of the

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equipment and everything to get back to

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the idea you had and you had when you

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thought it was a good it was possibly uh

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a good suggestion to take up to make

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this particular film you know um and so

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you got to

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focus and you have to eliminate

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everything else around it and I don't

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think you should be um uh there's no

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there's no way to say don't be

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intimidated by the enormity

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of U the uh the machine so to speak

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because very often certain kinds of

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films it is that way but uh particularly

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because technology of today I don't

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think you should

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let that stop you in other words um if

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you feel you want to say something you

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feel you want to express it through

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Visual uh visual means uh you have the

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technology to do it yourself you know

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now that could uh build exponentially to

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a bigger production and there's always a

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way of there's always because of that um

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it'll always be a learning process how

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to deal with the machine you know but

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don't let the machine get in the way and

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also don't let the machine tell you what

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you can't

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do that's I mean you may not be able to

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do pretty much anything but don't let

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them tell you you

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can there's a lot of very knowledgeable

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people really good people especially if

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they they like working with you Etc

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they're going to try to find a way to

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get what you want or what you think you

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want until you have to get what you need

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as they say this of course takes us back

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to the um to the point where

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there's a a core a group of three or

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four people that um deal with trust and

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uh excitement about what you're doing um

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and trying to help you uh trying to help

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you achieve it uh it doesn't matter I

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mean yes it' be good to have they it

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works it works in a in a way with the

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core of people uh together with you

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working for the same goal and then it

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branches out then they have a core

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people this one has a core this one has

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a core and they're all working together

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that's the ideal you know particularly

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when you're in a location somewhere you

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get there and there's a typhoon

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seriously I was surprised we were

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shooting uh silence in Taiwan and one

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day towards the end of the shoot there

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was a uh a scene that we were doing by a

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stream with these rocks it was very

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quite dangerous to walk on because it

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was slippery uh but it turned out to be

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the hottest day of the year and I

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started to pass out people were it was

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really very very difficult and um that's

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towards the end of the shoot um because

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the weather there sometimes too hot to

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shoot in the summer so the next day we

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had a scene on a a beach in which uh

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people were being martyred uh thrown on

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funeral PES and that sort of thing um

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and I got through they drove me out to

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the location and Remer this is after a

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day of intense heat and humidity uh

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we're going further out location further

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I've noticed it's beginning to rain

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I you know don't think anything of it

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and I get there finally get into this

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little trailer they had for me or bus

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actually it was a little bus and uh

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suddenly the door opens and I I feel the

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place is rocking you know and suddenly

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the door opens and these two figures

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come in and they're covered in

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Slickers and they're wet completely

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soaked and they look up and it was my

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assistant director my Director of

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Photography I didn't recognize them and

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I what are they doing making everything

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wet what what's happened and they said

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and they pointed out to me he said he

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looked up and said we could do it we

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could shoot

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today

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um first of all I didn't never in my

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head that we weren't going to shoot

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secondly I they said there was going to

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be the tail under a typhoon but not like

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this this was but thirdly they were so

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beaten that I didn't even recognize them

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and yet they were out there ready to

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pull it together and shoot and which is

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what we did um we did it we we did it

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rapidly because uh

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um the weather dictated uh these things

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the movement of the crew and the camera

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moves the crane Etc but uh also would

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help because the uh we were able to do

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the same because these are different

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elements that come together uh the

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dialogue was a pretty much a scene

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without dialogue that sort of thing and

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also because the um people playing the

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parts the

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Japanese

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um were so uh committed to playing these

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parts that as soon as you set action as

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soon as you started rolling that camera

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they're tied to a stake and being set on

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fire I mean they were they were already

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there in the scene there was no way and

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there was no uh trying to coax these

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actors they were on you see the crew was

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set you know they were going to shoot

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and that was it you know whether I like

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being in the rain or in the typhoon or

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not we were doing it

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for me uh the editing room itself is

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something that uh is a is as sacred a

3
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spot as as as the the set is you know so

4
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here is where the film really comes

5
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alive I feel um and when people talk

6
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about movies or Cinema they usually

7
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speak of images or the image you know I

8
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think what they're really talking about

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is sequences of images so when we edit a

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picture A movie we put one image next to

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another image to create the impression

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of a continuous action and then there

13
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are variations I mean you play with it

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um discontinuities ellipses surprising

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cuts that sort of take you and reorient

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your sense of time and place you know

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but creating the impression of

18
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continuous action is how we tell stories

19
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in time but there's something else for

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me um it's what I think of as the heart

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of Cinema because every time I get into

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the editing

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room I'm struck by it all over again and

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this is every time uh one has to

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understand sometimes you get in you're

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very tired and sometimes it's very roote

27
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kind of work um it's hard uh um physical

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work at times and then something happens

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and I'm struck by it all over again see

30
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you take one image and you put it

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together with another image and there's

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a third Phantom event that happens in

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the Mind's

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Eye you could call it an image or maybe

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a thought or a

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sensation something happens that's

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absolutely unique to this particular

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combination or Collision of moving

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images and if you take a frame away from

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one shot or you add a couple of frames

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to the other shot the image in the

42
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Mind's Eye

43
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changes this will always be a Wonder to

44
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me and by the way often in the old days

45
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we used to see films and very bad prints

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uh which uh involved uh which had uh

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jump Cuts in it or scratches or pieces

48
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missing um and the scenes were different

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by accident they were different so this

50
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addition and the subtraction of one or

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two frames one frame everything depends

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on that one frame it is storytelling one

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frame each frame is important you know

54
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eisenstein Sergey eisenstein talked

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about well he talked about this on an

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extremely theoretical level

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[Music]

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I would say that the power of his films

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Isis siiz films happens to me despite

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the theoretical

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ideas and this is where you know a good

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film Comes Alive as something more than

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just a succession of beautifully

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composed rendering of script Pages

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basically this is film making

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[Music]

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you have to understand that when I

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started making films in the early 60s

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short films in myyu which became a

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feature towards the end of the late 60s

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before Mean Streets Etc these things

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were you made the film yourself you know

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you were expected to as I said not only

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write the film um but know how to shoot

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it with a camera but um I found that

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ultimately too we were expected to edit

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the films ourselves which is what what I

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did I had a couple of friends who helped

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me um at myyu we kind of switched jobs I

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did photography on one of uh one film

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and he would come on and do editing on

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mine with me without me somehow we made

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the films

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ourselves and so ultimately uh when I

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did Alice doesn't live here anymore and

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taxi driver in New York New York I

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ultimately wanted someone um that could

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work with me who would allow me to

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direct them in the editing and edit with

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them um and so uh I Met George Lucas and

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Marsha Lucas and uh she felt that she

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could uh adjoin me in the cutting of

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these films and which is what we did um

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it wasn't a matter of um uh we were

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younger and it wasn't a matter of

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uh professional versus

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nonprofessional uh threatened uh uh

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threatened creativity versus versus uh

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non-threatening in any way and that sort

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of and we just made the filmm um and

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they would listen to me which is what I

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wanted and we did have some other

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editors come in from time to time do

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certain scenes and uh wonderful editors

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actually helped remarkably for example

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with taxi driver and two or three scenes

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are really brilliant um but the style

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their style of working their way of

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working just was not conducive to what I

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did after a very difficult period I

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decided I was going to make Raging Bull

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I realized that um

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I needed to work with uh an editor who

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would uh know who I am accept me uh make

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the picture with me and uh most

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important if the studio came in or the

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finances came in and said we cut this

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film without him they wouldn't do it

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because again it's about control and

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again it only comes off experience it's

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the nature of the game um there are a

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number of friends of mine in the 70s

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whose films were taken away from them by

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the actors by the studio re-edited um in

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some cases the editor stayed

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on were hired by the director but the

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editor stayed on it's a different way of

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looking at things you know you're a

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professional uh in one in one in one

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realm and that's your job and that's

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your work and does friendship or loyalty

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where does that begin and end it's it's

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a complex uh it's not as cut and dry

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um and it's complex and it changes with

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every every uh situation of course but

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um ultimately there was always the

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danger of the film being taken

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away and it was happening all the time

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uh whether right or wrong it was

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happening and I didn't want that to

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happen so the person I knew was thalma

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scoon maker and um so I saw if she was

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available and what she wanted to do gave

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her a call and told it to come in and uh

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there was an issue I believe that Iran

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Winkler and Bob got for Winkler got her

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in the editor Union finally um uh and uh

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I knew that I I knew that in those

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circumstances there was a trust um that

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um ultimately uh I wouldn't walk in the

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editing room one day and see a scene

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that we had worked on the week before

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re-edited without me um and so this is

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very

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important and so that began a a long uh

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collaboration and editing and um we went

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out to do king of comedy and there was

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another break and then eventually

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decided to come together again on after

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hours and continued up over the years um

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one of the other things about working

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with her is the trust there's no doubt

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it's a same mind a

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like-mindedness um and also is not part

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of the industry that way I mean

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particularly in those days just not part

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of it doesn't think that way and so

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she's gone through these Journeys with

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me and in so doing we kind of know each

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other's people and when you look back

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1963 64 it's a long

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time there is no process I mean I yes I

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could tell you that you know we look at

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the rushes uh these days it's getting

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harder and harder to look at russes

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because of

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locations hour and a half to go to

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location hour to go to location come

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back an hour then you need to go to

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sleep to get ready for the next day so

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it's hard to see rushes U but when I can

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see the rushes and we try to do it daily

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or every two days uh we make selects

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tell her what I want tell her where I

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want it um she pulls all those selects

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uh so that you have for scene 14b you

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may have five or six sections in a row

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uh this may this may be not very

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different from what other people do but

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the first one is the first select uh

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preferred second preferred third

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preferred in that order as we were

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watching you know then there are others

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and we say I probably won't use them but

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pull that pull it pull it and ultimately

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in recutting the picture you wind up

197
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using some of the stuff you thought you

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wouldn't use but they're there already

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in that uh on that roll of film in the

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old days and now in that I guess uh

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folder or something or pamphlet or

202
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whatever they call these little folios

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or whatever they have on a computer I

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don't know a window or something but in

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any event it's there um and it's easily

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retrieved that's the thing and also

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during that process she memorized the

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stuff as I try to memorize while we're

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shooting so she knows of footage and

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remembers different things sometimes

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from takes that decided not to use where

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you need a different look on the face of

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the actor in relation to a certain line

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of dialogue it's maybe too harsh too low

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too much too high I don't know but in

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any event there's a an awareness that I

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of that I have that she knows that

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footage so from that uh period of U

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doing the pulling for the selects we

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then get together and direct the cutting

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of the scene uh particularly if the

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scene doesn't have an edited sequence to

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it in other words particularly if the

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scene doesn't have shots that are

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designed to go from 1 a to 1 B to 1 C to

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2 a to 2 B to 2 C that sort of if it

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doesn't have a mathematical u u design

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uh and it's more open and you could feel

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it out whether you start with a wide or

230
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tighter I'm not quite sure move in um we

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we uh work on the scene and then uh uh

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often I'm able to go do something else

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come back and she's uh put the scene

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together uh or we do two or three in a

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row she takes a day or so come back and

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we stay and we work on it very often

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it's late at night or something and you

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know we have uh done a great deal and we

239
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get very excited about something and we

240
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come back and see it the next day and

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have to redo it completely so that's

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really the process and then ultimately

243
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it's putting it all together and seeing

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it in the case of um certain films uh

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less footage is an advantage and it's a

246
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disadvantage disadvantage because you

247
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may be missing things okay uh but

248
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there's always ways around it you know

249
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uh Advantage because there's less

250
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footage to play with less time you you

251
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have less choices to make um the case of

252
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Mean Streets for example or um the taxi

253
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driver you know um even raging bll to a

254
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certain extent uh uh particularly the

255
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fight scenes because they were all

256
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fairly well laid out and drawn so um

257
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except for the last fight where he's

258
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given a a kind of a brutal beating at uh

259
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by Sugar Ray on the ropes that was shot

260
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differently and edited differently but

261
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um the majority is that that were they

262
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were U they were um not easy to cut but

263
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they were they went together uh more in

264
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a more fluid way because of the

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designs when I discuss let's say David

266
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Le who was a film editor when I discuss

267
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what he was able to do what he what he

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00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,959
um perceived as Rhythm and pacing for

269
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actors in his films the films he

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directed it comes out of editing I think

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uh he would rehearse the scene with the

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actors now mind you this is a very this

273
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is a very specific way of working a very

274
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specific kind of film uh traditional

275
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narrative film very often um the text

276
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being extraordinarily important written

277
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,680
by Robert Bolt or or other such

278
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excellent writers um and

279
00:12:32,560 --> 00:12:36,800
so there's respect for that um and it's

280
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a different way from thinking that I

281
00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,399
that I that I'm aware of so uh what was

282
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fascinating what lean said and that he

283
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would have the actors work on the scene

284
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and then Mount the scene on in the

285
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rehearsal Hall um and time it so a scene

286
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uh from Brief Encounter say uh was

287
00:12:57,399 --> 00:13:00,160
running 2 minutes and 30 seconds

288
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:01,680
he get it to a point where everybody

289
00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:04,480
understood what was happening um uh the

290
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:05,880
interpretation of the lines by the

291
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actors and guidance by the director was

292
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all there and then he started a kind of

293
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a a process of uh uh cutting in a way

294
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editing he would say now if we did it in

295
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2 minutes and 30 seconds let's do it now

296
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in

297
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220 and they would do that and then he'd

298
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say let's do it in two minutes and they'

299
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do that and he was picking up the pace

300
00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:31,199
and then finally to about a minute 40 or

301
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so um and when you when he shot it and

302
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when it's in the film um the pace seems

303
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right what he was pointing out is that

304
00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,800
on film often um things

305
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,800
appear to be longer I have a feeling

306
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that the the explanation is in um our

307
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perception of 24 frames a

308
00:13:52,519 --> 00:13:59,519
second I think it's a a a uh

309
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I think it has to do with how the brain

310
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perceives the image I think it's purely

311
00:14:03,759 --> 00:14:06,440
scientific and I found it too I feel the

312
00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,680
pace is Right sometimes and I'm shooting

313
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and then in the editing room I realize I

314
00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:13,800
maybe went I allowed it to be three or 4

315
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,839
seconds too slow uh or not slow

316
00:14:17,839 --> 00:14:21,839
enough the idea is to I find myself um

317
00:14:21,839 --> 00:14:23,880
uh trying to pick up the pace as much as

318
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,600
possible may not be successful but or at

319
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,120
least I get it to a point where I think

320
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,199
it's right uh but it's an interesting

321
00:14:30,199 --> 00:14:32,600
thing because it's the medium itself the

322
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,279
um uh moving image itself whether it's

323
00:14:35,279 --> 00:14:36,680
on film or on

324
00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,920
video so uh it's something to keep in

325
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mind

1
00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,240
the key thing is that I usually

2
00:00:17,240 --> 00:00:20,560
Envision a great deal of the film um in

3
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,000
terms of editing on the page in drawings

4
00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,720
in editing sequences in edited sequences

5
00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:33,640
in um editing designs uh

6
00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,040
some come to fruition some don't but

7
00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,239
mostly do uh mostly they do for example

8
00:00:40,239 --> 00:00:41,960
the fight scenes and raging bll and that

9
00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,120
sort of thing for the most part were all

10
00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,199
designed on paper diagrams drawings Etc

11
00:00:47,199 --> 00:00:49,120
okay uh the thing about is that she

12
00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,399
knows how to put it together she knows

13
00:00:51,399 --> 00:00:56,160
what I intend in the original drawings

14
00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,239
um even if not looking at the drawings I

15
00:00:58,239 --> 00:00:59,559
could describe it to her and she knows a

16
00:00:59,559 --> 00:01:01,719
certain patterns she knows what I like

17
00:01:01,719 --> 00:01:04,000
that way and knows how to achieve it

18
00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:05,479
technically and then I said okay now

19
00:01:05,479 --> 00:01:06,840
it's going to go from here to here to

20
00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:08,520
here and why isn't this working in the

21
00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,159
mid shot why is the third the middle

22
00:01:10,159 --> 00:01:12,799
shot not quite working uh it's a it's a

23
00:01:12,799 --> 00:01:14,920
series of three Cuts one two three in

24
00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,040
why is the second one okay maybe two

25
00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,400
frames too long on the second one take

26
00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:21,439
two frames off the second I said what

27
00:01:21,439 --> 00:01:23,320
about adding a frame on the third yeah

28
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add a frame on the third see that still

29
00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,240
off how about taking one frame off the

30
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second and putting two frames on the

31
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tail on the third and that sort of thing

32
00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:32,960
understands what to do and doesn't turn

33
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to you and say oh this is ridiculous I

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don't why don't we just leave it as it

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is and go in a pure way and simpler no

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this is what I'm doing you know um and

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doesn't argue with you on that point you

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know uh it it it winds up too in the

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editing where

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um uh certain things that you think are

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clear when you shoot them are unclear

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and so we find different ways together

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to uh clarify those things that I agree

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should be CL clarified um in in many

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cases uh this has taken me into

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Uncharted Territory in a way uh films

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that are uh pretty much based on uh

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strong narrative or strong story lines I

49
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should say plot more than narrative plot

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um and I I have an aversion to that

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sometimes and so screenings are very

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important and we get a feedback from

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people whether you understand certain

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things or not she deciphers it with me

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for me and then we talk about those

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issues which we try to to

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clarify and then at a certain

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point I realize the ones I don't want

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clarified that's the cast of The the D

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is cast that's it and these won't be

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clarified some will get it some won't

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some will like it some won't and

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together we we we work that out um and

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it's uh never been a a situation of um

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um

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losing touch with the picture because

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she'll keep me there you see and it's

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always for the

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film not for the with respect to the

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studio respect to the financiers and

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other people other people have great

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deal of power in the process the loyalty

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is to the film and me rather than anyone

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else and in some cases too that's one of

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the reasons I kept working with dairo uh

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in the 70s you know a lot of the actors

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number of actors great actors did at

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certain points have that power to recut

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a picture uh but he um never took

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advantage of that and so um you tend to

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work with the people who you see eye to

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eye with in terms of philosophy life

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background and no matter how many

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suggestions no matter how much they work

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at you uh the

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real uh support is um my editor

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collaborator at thalma to keep me on the

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line

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there are certain scenes that I love

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very much but we've had to lose them you

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know one of the key uh films we learned

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that are relearned to a certain extent

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well least we'd think anyway um was

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after hours uh we didn't have the ending

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of the script for some reason I forget I

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00:04:24,199 --> 00:04:26,360
it's a again as I say I was trying to

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learn how to make try to not learn but

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yeah I guess learn is the way or trying

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to find a way to make a movie again um

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along with Michael ballhouse and the

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style of the film all of this sort of

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thing um and

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so the ending of the script wasn't very

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clear but I figured let's get there

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which is not a thing to do by the way

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don't try that uh I wasn't even Roman

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palansky a few years ago I told him

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about the the the Ghost Rider I said

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that last shot is great he goes always

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get the last shot first that works for

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him

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but it worked the last shot in that film

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is terrific all those films you know so

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once I get the last shot I know how to

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do the rest of the film it's a it's it's

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great um but again that's a process for

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him here uh here I was talking about oh

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after

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hours we didn't really have the ending I

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don't know where the hell he was going

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to wind up you know and so uh I shot the

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script as uh as it was structured

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originally and the first cut I think was

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2 hours and 35 minutes and you know it's

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funny the film is funny but uh at 2

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hours and 35 minutes it wasn't funny it

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was

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heavy and disturbing I don't know what

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it was but it wasn't the picture that we

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uh had in mind um I found

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that reading something and imagining

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something when you shoot it it goes it

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takes longer uh uh time on screen is is

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uh longer for some reason and so um uh

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we we had to find ways to trim the story

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down um until finally we got it to 90

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minutes or 87 minutes the film I forget

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exactly what and we tested it with

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audiences too um for the laugh lines for

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the laugh to see if the audience was

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going to go with the game you know today

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it's different today they have cell

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phones something like this wouldn't

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happen happen a different way but at

145
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that time there were no cell phones and

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um he could not get back up town and of

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course you couldn't take it literally

148
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anyway but if you're not willing to go

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um if you're not willing to to to play

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the game then you're not going to watch

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the film so that's something you're

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00:06:32,319 --> 00:06:34,599
going to lose that person that's it but

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here when we got them hooked and they

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went with it the faster the picture went

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the better and so I had to rewrite some

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scenes and do some re-shooting uh for

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like four days or so um I had shown the

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picture of Terry Gilliam uh Michael

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Powell uh Steve Spielberg they would

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call me with suggestions and things and

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um and so what we wound up doing was

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cutting two to three of our favorite

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scenes out of the picture that was a

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painful painful uh situation again what

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I mean by that is to

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um we're very lucky because the film was

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very low budget we were able to

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experiment and the idea then was to um

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learn about script construction even

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more you know and understand that

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certain things read one way play out

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longer um

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and uh it's advisable to at least kind

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of to know where the story is going for

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an ending to a certain extent uh not all

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the time but in a case like that it

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was ultimately uh uh we'll screen a

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picture first we don't show it to

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anybody it's just

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ourselves um there something George

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Lucas always said he says if you like

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your first cut you're in

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trouble if you don't get physically ill

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seeing your First Assembly or rough cut

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something's wrong you always think by

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the way you're not going to get

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physically ill but you

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do maybe a lot of other people even when

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the final the final product is shown I

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don't know but um you know it's not what

191
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I want that this is complet this is

192
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misfiring here that isn't happening

193
00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,400
there and we use the edited patterns but

194
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it's not working here and there and so

195
00:08:25,039 --> 00:08:30,199
um we then hone in on what could be

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00:08:30,199 --> 00:08:32,039
uh for certain reasons maybe special

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effects uh visuals or certain problems

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with availability of actors certain

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00:08:36,919 --> 00:08:39,240
sections of the films first may have to

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00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,599
do the middle first or the end or we

201
00:08:41,599 --> 00:08:42,959
find that we got to keep going back to

202
00:08:42,959 --> 00:08:44,920
the end because we always when we got to

203
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the end we were getting tired and wanted

204
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to screen the picture and we did less

205
00:08:48,279 --> 00:08:50,040
work on it so that needs all the work

206
00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:51,480
then we fix that and the beginning is

207
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long so we go back to that and it goes

208
00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,040
been it it just is is a a work in there

209
00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,079
is no way to describe a process you know

210
00:09:00,079 --> 00:09:02,360
um now there are some uh directors who

211
00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,160
uh give the same scene to three

212
00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,000
editors and they work that way and

213
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,320
they're brilliant brilliant there are

214
00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,079
some directors who give a scene to three

215
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or four editors and don't tell

216
00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:17,000
them and come up with some great

217
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,120
films they used to do that with writers

218
00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:20,800
too they maybe still do have two or

219
00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:21,920
three writers working on the same

220
00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:26,680
picture nobody knows um uh so so there

221
00:09:26,680 --> 00:09:28,079
are different ways to go everybody has a

222
00:09:28,079 --> 00:09:30,600
different process UL though you do have

223
00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,399
to look at it when it's finished or you

224
00:09:33,399 --> 00:09:35,200
think it's finished and it's never

225
00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:40,200
finished right it's never finished so

1
00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,480
I really loved color when I was a child

2
00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:16,680
watching these

3
00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:21,039
films and I found um U that as the color

4
00:00:21,039 --> 00:00:23,480
uh process changed the color changed you

5
00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,439
know um and eventually U by the early

6
00:00:27,439 --> 00:00:31,399
50s um the uh Chang from three strip to

7
00:00:31,399 --> 00:00:34,840
monopack changed the nature of the color

8
00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,320
and colors became more muted I thought I

9
00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,079
happen to like the very bright colors of

10
00:00:40,079 --> 00:00:42,600
uh early Technicolor that doesn't mean I

11
00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,600
don't like black and white uh that's

12
00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,320
that's the difference that the black and

13
00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,360
white was color and still is but I was

14
00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:52,800
really fascinated

15
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,840
by that projection on the screen and I

16
00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:57,199
think it may have been because the first

17
00:00:57,199 --> 00:00:59,960
film I saw was duel in the sun uh was

18
00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:02,239
three strip Technic color and that the

19
00:01:02,239 --> 00:01:04,159
credits the opening credits come up and

20
00:01:04,159 --> 00:01:07,159
it's the the blazing hot yellow sun and

21
00:01:07,159 --> 00:01:09,360
the the titles come up and you hear

22
00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,920
gunshots and it was absolutely a a a

23
00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,119
overpowering um feeling watching that

24
00:01:15,119 --> 00:01:16,400
film or trying to watch actually

25
00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,280
terrified me I was about 5 years

26
00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,840
old but the use of color in that I think

27
00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,400
set set the tone for me and there's no

28
00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:28,200
doubt that I uh um I respond to vibrant

29
00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,079
use of color in uh that or for the

30
00:01:30,079 --> 00:01:32,520
moment like in 1948 when my brother took

31
00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,159
me to see a re-release of Wizard of Oz

32
00:01:34,159 --> 00:01:36,799
when the sepia sequences at the

33
00:01:36,799 --> 00:01:38,840
beginning in the house lands in Oz you

34
00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:40,320
know and it's still in sepia but she

35
00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:41,759
opens the door and it's

36
00:01:41,759 --> 00:01:44,240
Technicolor um that moment have always

37
00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,880
been something that I I love I love when

38
00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:48,920
films uh in the late 40s were in black

39
00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:49,920
and white and then there was one

40
00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:51,840
sequence in color like the Portrait of

41
00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,759
Dorian Gray um or the end of portrait of

42
00:01:54,759 --> 00:01:58,000
Jenny where um it's tinted green the

43
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,439
storm and uh ultimately the last shot is

44
00:02:00,439 --> 00:02:03,119
in color of the film this made it very

45
00:02:03,119 --> 00:02:06,159
special for me and then seeing

46
00:02:06,159 --> 00:02:11,599
um uh the uh two color films uh which I

47
00:02:11,599 --> 00:02:15,599
I felt were magical to me and so this

48
00:02:15,599 --> 00:02:19,680
all revolved around that technical

49
00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:21,800
process that oswal Mars and John hon

50
00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,080
used on Moby Dick the desaturation of

51
00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,879
the color which I try to do many times

52
00:02:26,879 --> 00:02:28,519
basically coming up with an image that

53
00:02:28,519 --> 00:02:32,840
looked um so desaturated that uh it was

54
00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,440
almost like a colorized deera type in a

55
00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:38,840
way and had a red great sense of almost

56
00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,040
like looking at paintings or I should

57
00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:43,599
say

58
00:02:43,599 --> 00:02:46,480
scrimshaw um etchings done on um

59
00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:48,480
whalebone uh it was quite quite

60
00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,120
beautiful I

61
00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:56,560
thought you see when a picture is made

62
00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:58,080
in color you also have to design in

63
00:02:58,080 --> 00:02:59,480
color that means the color means

64
00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:00,720
something

65
00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:05,760
uh and uh color is special you know um

66
00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:07,480
and the use of color was something new

67
00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,959
in a way but just to shoot because it's

68
00:03:09,959 --> 00:03:12,879
color doesn't quite make sense so the

69
00:03:12,879 --> 00:03:16,200
use of um primary colors is important as

70
00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,959
I say color means something uh even when

71
00:03:18,959 --> 00:03:21,319
you don't want it to it does and so you

72
00:03:21,319 --> 00:03:22,680
have to be very careful the colors you

73
00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:24,840
allow in the frame when color became

74
00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,080
somewhat uh um expected all the time it

75
00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,120
lost its uh special nature for me there

76
00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,120
was a different way of using Color to

77
00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,040
different lenses then different um film

78
00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,159
stocks so you really had people

79
00:03:37,159 --> 00:03:39,959
utilizing color to tell a story also uh

80
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in a different way from um the studio

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00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,560
films um because they did tell a story

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there

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00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,840
too all this this obsession with color

84
00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,480
on film uh found its way into one of the

85
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reasons why I did The Aviator and I

86
00:03:57,959 --> 00:04:00,599
decided that we're g to try to do um

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color in the film that represented the

88
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color as it as it was um available in

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whatever process uh Technicolor had at

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the time so if the film starts in 1922

91
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or whatever the color looks like

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two-color or represents two-color of

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that period And so uh Sandy pow had to

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design costumes that would play in that

95
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color often I think there's one scene

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where they go to the Coconut Grove and

97
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uh Cape blanchett's dress which is a

98
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kind of lame I think um

99
00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,960
I believe is a kind of a gold color but

100
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I think in actuality it was

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green and so we tested all of this the

102
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thing about creating that is really an

103
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obsession with color uh and slowly the

104
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color in Aviator slips into uh a feeling

105
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of a more saturated three strip techic

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color and then finally a colder color in

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the

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end but timately that was really one of

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the reasons for making the picture and

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that was not possible really until the

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use of the digital intermediate part of

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this part of this is beyond me in terms

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I was learning as I was going along um

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uh with um on Aviator and it was it was

115
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really a an exciting um experience

116
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because I was able to use prev

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visualization for the first time taking

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my notes and little drawings and

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transferring them into um the um

120
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previz Rob legado was doing with me and

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so the storyboard came alive in a way um

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and um um it was a new way of making

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pictures in a sense for the action

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sequences I'm talking about the flying

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scenes um we had seen a beautiful show

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on color and film right before we did

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The Aviator um at the Academy in LA in

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which they first screened a beautiful

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black and white nitrate of Midsummer

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Night stream sections they screened

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sections of it then they screened

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beautiful examples of tinting and toning

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from syum films and night trade prints

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they had leading up to full use of color

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um and it was really a revelation even

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the beautiful um uh print they had of

137
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East of Eden uh at that time because I

138
00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,560
recall that color in 53 and 54 Warner

139
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Brothers scope films had more of a

140
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brownish blue feel to them um as opposed

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to as opposed to Fox um and the films

142
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they were making so um uh there was

143
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always a slight difference um and it

144
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became sort of uh encoded in my head um

145
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and so we use them as references but I

146
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must say that the uh the use of the Di

147
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has increase the

148
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uh possibilities of color uh

149
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and in a in a way it's strange because

150
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there is no limit very very there are so

151
00:06:51,599 --> 00:06:54,039
many possibilities now and and it's

152
00:06:54,039 --> 00:06:55,720
exciting but at the same time you have

153
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to force yourself to uh limit those

154
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possibilities

155
00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:01,440
uh and don't let the technology take

156
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over you know because you can do it

157
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doesn't mean you should do it

1
00:00:12,519 --> 00:00:15,839
I'm finding that when I see some new

2
00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:19,680
films modern films um that yes I miss

3
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:21,600
black and white to a certain extent and

4
00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,279
this is a person who who's saying that I

5
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was fascinated by the three strip

6
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Technic color yet black and white

7
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existed alongside it and had its own

8
00:00:29,279 --> 00:00:31,439
sense of color light and Shadow it had

9
00:00:31,439 --> 00:00:35,040
its own style um it had its own meaning

10
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in a way but uh I found that just

11
00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,200
transliterating in a sense a reality

12
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that in front of you with some light

13
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Illuminating it and uh trans

14
00:00:46,239 --> 00:00:50,079
transliterating it to u to Celluloid at

15
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that time uh isn't very creative you see

16
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I just didn't think it was however I

17
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think in the past I don't know 10 15

18
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years or so I'm seeing a kind of um in

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some of the new

20
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films and in many cases Independent

21
00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,720
films um but I'm seeing something happen

22
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with the color that um color has become

23
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for certain subjects and certain very

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very intentionally done by the

25
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filmmakers um in most cases I would

26
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think have become kind has become kind

27
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of neutral at times that

28
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neutrality um that

29
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neutrality uh has kind of taken the

30
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place of black and white

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it's uh it's in color but it's not

32
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making a statement the statement that

33
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you don't notice it's in color is the

34
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statement and it doesn't have the

35
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complexity and design and style and

36
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meaning of black and white uh but that's

37
00:01:46,439 --> 00:01:49,119
gone that's gone that's another time and

38
00:01:49,119 --> 00:01:51,399
place uh there are some films made in

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black and white today um I find that

40
00:01:54,399 --> 00:01:56,039
they're digital though and there's a

41
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difference between digital black and

42
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white and actually shooting on Celluloid

43
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black and white so um this is something

44
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that it's it's to be encouraged there's

45
00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,560
no doubt but some uh films that I'm

46
00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,080
black and white are uh in a way not not

47
00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,400
all but uh some are self-consciously in

48
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black and

49
00:02:15,239 --> 00:02:18,080
white it's kind of

50
00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,319
a on the on on a on a spectrum of

51
00:02:21,319 --> 00:02:22,879
positive negative and negative it's more

52
00:02:22,879 --> 00:02:26,200
pretentious and and positive um it feels

53
00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,840
right you know um but black and white

54
00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:30,599
has been hijacked also by advertising

55
00:02:30,599 --> 00:02:32,800
and well by everything really you know

56
00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,400
people punch up an image put it in black

57
00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:37,000
and white kids sh you could shoot

58
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:38,840
anything you know I'm talking I'm

59
00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:40,319
illiterate in terms of computer but I

60
00:02:40,319 --> 00:02:42,120
noticed that you can do anything on it

61
00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,879
you have every possible trick and every

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00:02:44,879 --> 00:02:48,599
possible color and color combination and

63
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um every possible uh special effect that

64
00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,360
you could do immediately without working

65
00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,440
through the special effect so in a funny

66
00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,000
way at first I was concerned about about

67
00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:01,640
that sort of thing for young people and

68
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then I realized let them get it out of

69
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their system let them realize it doesn't

70
00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,879
mean anything because again has to go

71
00:03:06,879 --> 00:03:08,400
back to the core of who you are and what

72
00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,920
you're trying to

73
00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,519
say while we were doing research on

74
00:03:16,519 --> 00:03:21,680
Raging Bull um there was 8 mm sound

75
00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,280
footage in color of uh Bob dairo

76
00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,560
sparring with the sparring partner

77
00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:30,720
trying to work out Cor ography with Jake

78
00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,360
lamada for certain scenes in the film I

79
00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,040
remember projecting him my apartment

80
00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,920
projecting my apartment in in New York

81
00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,799
projecting them on a white wall and uh I

82
00:03:40,799 --> 00:03:43,319
forget it was with me I think Jay Jay

83
00:03:43,319 --> 00:03:46,080
coxman Michael Powell and um the gloves

84
00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:51,560
were um U modern gloves um now mind you

85
00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,519
I just really began to realize the

86
00:03:54,519 --> 00:03:57,360
extent to which uh so much of this was

87
00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,159
being lost in in uh Cinema history uh so

88
00:04:01,159 --> 00:04:02,959
many films that we take a look at for

89
00:04:02,959 --> 00:04:04,360
the second or third time we can get a

90
00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,040
print was completely faded and gone and

91
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so uh I was very

92
00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,640
very um very alerted to this at the same

93
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,040
time a number of other boxing films are

94
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being made around this is

95
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79 so I'm looking at this footage and as

96
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,800
Bob uh C graphing someone choreographing

97
00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,560
for Bob and Michael Powell's looking he

98
00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:29,880
says there's something wrong I said what

99
00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:31,639
is he said the gloves are too

100
00:04:31,639 --> 00:04:34,720
Red I said yeah you're right they are

101
00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,000
the color is throwing me said the color

102
00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,000
is throwing me that led to realization

103
00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:45,000
to that the fight scenes um would be uh

104
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,240
rather bloody and I said all that blood

105
00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,360
flying around the screen in color I

106
00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,240
remember becoming

107
00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,560
uh unconvinced by the use of the by the

108
00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,120
by the by the intensity of the color red

109
00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,080
in the shootout and taxi driver and

110
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:03,600
that's one of the reasons I was able to

111
00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,880
um desaturate the color I felt it look

112
00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,039
fake and I said that that would limit

113
00:05:09,039 --> 00:05:12,120
what we're doing in the ring and then I

114
00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:13,080
began

115
00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,240
to I've been thinking about it a lot I

116
00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,160
was realizing why design this picture in

117
00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,720
color especially a period piece when um

118
00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,199
it's going to fade in a couple of years

119
00:05:23,199 --> 00:05:25,720
you know and at that time video was

120
00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:27,440
maybe just beginning but was no

121
00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,319
guarantee you going to see these things

122
00:05:29,319 --> 00:05:31,080
in the original

123
00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,000
form and so ultimately we decided to

124
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,319
shoot it in black and white um and uh

125
00:05:38,319 --> 00:05:40,600
the studio was against it and I remember

126
00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:42,919
them coming up to talk to us about it

127
00:05:42,919 --> 00:05:45,400
and I said but look you have I think

128
00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,199
five films this year opening or when

129
00:05:47,199 --> 00:05:48,360
this film is finished it'll be five

130
00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,199
films about boxing that'll be opening

131
00:05:50,199 --> 00:05:52,039
you have the main event or stri in you

132
00:05:52,039 --> 00:05:54,960
have uh the prize fighter with um Don

133
00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,800
knots and Tim Conway yeah have Rocky 2

134
00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:03,840
and um Matilda the boxing kangaroo in

135
00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:07,599
color I said now number four okay but

136
00:06:07,599 --> 00:06:09,880
still we'd be the fifth in

137
00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,160
color I mean it just it doesn't what if

138
00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,680
we're black and white it's different and

139
00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:18,639
so there now people want to see black

140
00:06:18,639 --> 00:06:20,720
and white so IR wiler says don't forget

141
00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:22,919
Lenny Bob F's Lenny black and white

142
00:06:22,919 --> 00:06:24,840
paper moon Peter banovich black and

143
00:06:24,840 --> 00:06:27,639
white people liked it and I said well

144
00:06:27,639 --> 00:06:29,919
all right and so that's how we got it

145
00:06:29,919 --> 00:06:31,639
that's how we got it uh we did put a

146
00:06:31,639 --> 00:06:33,800
color sequence into the home movies

147
00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:35,960
which um when thma went to check out the

148
00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,120
projection on on Broadway and the film

149
00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,440
is being screened in Broadway uh I used

150
00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,360
to say very often the last or tour of a

151
00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,240
film is the projectionist because he

152
00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,160
figures out you know how much head room

153
00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:48,759
you're going to have the aspect ratio

154
00:06:48,759 --> 00:06:51,919
whatever if it screws up it screws up so

155
00:06:51,919 --> 00:06:54,280
uh she walked into the booth to check

156
00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:56,039
the sound and see if everything was

157
00:06:56,039 --> 00:06:57,599
working out this is the first two day

158
00:06:57,599 --> 00:06:59,759
first two days of the film being uh the

159
00:06:59,759 --> 00:07:02,199
film playing in New York and he said I'm

160
00:07:02,199 --> 00:07:03,280
glad you're here you're the editor of

161
00:07:03,280 --> 00:07:04,560
this I'm glad you're here said because

162
00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:05,800
it was a real problem there's a whole

163
00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:07,319
color sequence in the film we had to cut

164
00:07:07,319 --> 00:07:09,440
it

165
00:07:11,319 --> 00:07:13,400
out

166
00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,919
so see it never ends

1
00:00:07,279 --> 00:00:08,880
when films were first

2
00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,400
created two things actually three things

3
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:14,000
were

4
00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,439
uh were expected and looked forward to

5
00:00:17,439 --> 00:00:20,640
and experimented with that was sound um

6
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:22,800
color and

7
00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:24,760
3D and you can go back to the very

8
00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:26,439
beginnings of film and you'll see

9
00:00:26,439 --> 00:00:28,160
examples of that people trying

10
00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,240
constantly so sound is something very

11
00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,559
natural of course uh and uh that

12
00:00:33,559 --> 00:00:37,239
complements the medium right complements

13
00:00:37,239 --> 00:00:41,920
it sound or lack thereof you know and so

14
00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,360
um the sound

15
00:00:45,480 --> 00:00:48,440
design uh could be anything it again has

16
00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,120
to come from I think One Vision or and

17
00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:56,039
best as possible um combine with those

18
00:00:56,039 --> 00:00:59,280
around that Vision who adhere to it who

19
00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:00,840
feel

20
00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,799
similarly about it and um are all on the

21
00:01:04,799 --> 00:01:07,920
right track to expressing

22
00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,000
it sound design has developed into a

23
00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,240
situation where because the technology

24
00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:17,360
is there because there are so many

25
00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:18,720
choices because there's so many things

26
00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,960
you could do in the um mixing room um

27
00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:26,280
people use it and uh I think they're

28
00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,159
using it because they could use it

29
00:01:28,159 --> 00:01:31,079
rather than it should be used uh and so

30
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you know uh I'm always told that a 5.1

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then there's a 7.1 I said how many how

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much more sound could you have in a film

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in a theater um but there are certain

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films I would think or the majority of

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the films that are being made in the the

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big budget pictures have a a sound

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design um that an audience kind of now

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in a theater I would think expects in a

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way uh there uh I find that when I go

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into the mixing room with Tom fman and

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our crew

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I find that I start stripping away the

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sounds um for for many films that we'

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worked on and I find that um um group I

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work with Tom fman and everybody do

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incredible job but um technically at

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times I know that I'm I'm told yes that

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dialogue is clear it may be clear but

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it's not registering and it's uh being

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being covered or being uh uh kind of

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immersed in a in a sense of sound

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and so I try to clear away as much as

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possible um but again um uh films that

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are uh spectacles so to speak or the uh

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you know

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um fantasy films or films that are in 3D

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and IMX and yeah the sound is uh sound

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has always been a very special part of

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um a presentation of a film or a play or

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anything in in history to an audience

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you know but we're in danger here of of

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expecting a certain kind of treatment of

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sound that isn't necessary let's just go

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with what's

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necessary everything is set up to go

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against you so to speak um because there

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are ways that people do things and there

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are ways that the system works or there

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are ways that the technology works and

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you know if you're new and you come into

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a situation say I I want I want this I

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want that they kind of know more than

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you do in terms of Technology so there

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is a fine line where even if they want

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to help um you may find that you have to

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be very firm about uh standing by what

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you want because sometimes uh people say

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just isn't done well it's a good reason

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to do

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it you know I think in Orson Wells and

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Greg Tolen in uh citizen can they I

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think he told I may be paraphrasing I

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may have this wrong but I think he told

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Greg T let's do everything we were told

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not to

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do and he said the greatest thing I

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could bring to cinema was

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ignorance now tech technology today

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certain things work a certain way that's

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true learn how to use it uh don't take

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uh uh that monolith of the technology

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and don't let it forbid

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you you know forbid you from uh

94
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achieving something now years ago was uh

95
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the mixes were not easy

96
00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:32,720
of course never was easy but there was

97
00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:34,000
always a problem of wanting something a

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little louder and they'd always say it

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was going into the red because that

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meant it would distort on the optical

101
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track of the film there's so many fights

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about that you know technically yeah it

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may be going into the red technically it

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would distort but how far could we get

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it before it could distort you know and

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um it's it's a tricky situation because

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a lot of people um have to protect what

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they do uh they are assigned a certain

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role in a picture and they have to

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protect it has to come out right in

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terms of uh

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uh in terms of their professionalism but

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yet you have to find how to how to work

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within the professionalism of others to

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help you um achieve what you

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want I remember we were very proud when

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taxi driver was being mixed I think it

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was mixed in 5 days

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um in La where they they complained they

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said these dialog tracks are the worst

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dialogue tracks we ever heard I said

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that's right that's right I wasn't you

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know it wasn't being

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um feisty in any way with the with they

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were the worst tracks there's no doubt

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about it that we're shooting in the city

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there are Sirens there are horns

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everywhere there are people screaming in

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the streets I mean this is what it is

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this is the city the city and that those

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sounds under the dialogue or around the

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dialogue that's part of the character of

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the film you see I find that these days

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very often people want to

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uh weed that out to a certain extent uh

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in uh the famous scene that dairo

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improvised are you talking to me if you

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listen to it there are bongo drums

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outside there are Sirens there are

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planes going over you talking to

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me you talking to

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me you talking to me

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then who the hell else are you talking

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talking to

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me well I'm the only one

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here these days people say you want that

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plane out you know maybe in some cases

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but the object you find is they're

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saying it'll sound better you'll be

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clearer in the dialogue and sometimes

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the dialogue doesn't have to be that

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clear you know anyway again it depends

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on where you are in the movie at that

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point as the filmmaker and what you you

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think is important the most important

156
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element you know um but it is a good

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example of sound design today um uh

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taking control ultimately in the wrong

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way you know um I always thought sound

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design was a concept of

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uh interpretive concept um I

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remember skip livsey I remember the

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sound of the fan in Blood Simple and

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liking the way that sounded it's not

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it's a fan on the ceiling

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but it was it implied something else and

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I thought that was interesting well

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Frank Warner's work of course of Raging

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Bull

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um yeah Frank Warner uh with sound

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effects he was so protective of his

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sound effects that U he didn't want

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anybody else to use them so he would

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burn them

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afterwards for the most part uh don't

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forget this was a time before video

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before digital so he had the power to

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throw them away he came up with sounds

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um that were elephant uh elephant uh

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trumpets trumpeting of elephants and

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wild animal sounds and it was mixed in

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with the uh with the sounds of

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the the punches that were being thrown

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[Applause]

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refere on his feet now and the referee

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is wiping off his gloves he is

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done l comes at him being knocked down

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Robinson is well ahead on point he hooks

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the left to the jaw left and the right

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to the head by Robinson

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L all of these kinds of uh sort of

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philosophical approaches to each uh each

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fight scene uh yes uh cinematically I

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had worked it out and we had shot it and

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we edited it but the sound was layered

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in later in the mix with Palma myself

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and of course Frank Warner um and

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ultimately at that point in the TW fight

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that punch was so was so uh decisive to

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say the least that um how do we make it

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important in terms of sound and we tried

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it the problem taking out the sound

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there is when does the sound come back

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in and how hard do it come back in how

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strong does it come back and come back

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in softer does it fade in all of this

207
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sort of thing so we were feeling this

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out as we were doing that mix it was a

209
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very long mix because of that

210
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when I was editing uh Mean Streets there

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was a a scene where in a bar that I I

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simply did not get um the right angle to

213
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be able to make um the transition

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between a wide shot and a tighter of uh

215
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these uh characters men coming to

216
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walking to a table I believe in the bar

217
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and then suddenly they're sitting down

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uh and I may be oversimplifying it now I

219
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haven't seen the scene in a long long

220
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time but remember just breaking through

221
00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,399
the form I had no choice but to cut to

222
00:10:04,399 --> 00:10:06,200
them sitting and the jump cut didn't

223
00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,760
work and so what I did was um in the

224
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wide shot first part the the the first

225
00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,760
shot they pull a chair out and there's

226
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there's a uh the dragging sound of the

227
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chair and I use that sound over the cut

228
00:10:20,399 --> 00:10:22,760
next thing you know they're sitting um

229
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and I think in the Mind's Eye you think

230
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you've seen them sit down but it's a

231
00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,079
sound of chair dragging

232
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and uh so um it's this kind of thing

233
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that broke through the form for me um

234
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and it relates back to relates back to

235
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uh the things I was talking about about

236
00:10:39,839 --> 00:10:41,399
what heg minian said about the value of

237
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a shot the value of a sound take it and

238
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use it

239
00:10:45,519 --> 00:10:48,200
for use it for purposes that you never

240
00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,720
intended you know and it yet it it it

241
00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,720
you hope you should be able to test it

242
00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,440
to see but um yet it IT projects forth

243
00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,640
the um forward The Narrative of the

244
00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:07,079
[Music]

245
00:11:07,079 --> 00:11:10,440
picture I always find that uh the use of

246
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,399
sound in some of the films that had very

247
00:11:12,399 --> 00:11:15,440
low budget was interesting because um

248
00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:16,839
they had no choice but to use certain

249
00:11:16,839 --> 00:11:18,680
sounds or to use it to use it

250
00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:20,560
imaginatively more imaginative to

251
00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:25,639
suggest things and um for example

252
00:11:25,639 --> 00:11:29,680
um cat people valuten

253
00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:32,839
particular scene with the young woman

254
00:11:32,839 --> 00:11:35,279
walking at night in the street basically

255
00:11:35,279 --> 00:11:38,120
only had the sidewalk and a wall behind

256
00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:42,160
her I believe um and uh she feels she's

257
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:46,880
being followed by a um um a leopard or

258
00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,320
Panther I should say and if you study

259
00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:51,720
that scene and if you study how it

260
00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,160
builds in sound between the footsteps

261
00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,920
and what she thinks of the sounds of the

262
00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:01,160
panther um camera angles uh if you study

263
00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,240
up to that point in which the bus

264
00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,839
arrives and the the bus driver opens the

265
00:12:05,839 --> 00:12:08,320
door is kind of like a hydraulic sound

266
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,519
the doors opening it's almost like a

267
00:12:10,519 --> 00:12:13,720
piercing scream and you reached um a

268
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,279
climactic point in the scene with very

269
00:12:16,279 --> 00:12:19,440
little in terms of production elements

270
00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,399
you know granted the lighting is very

271
00:12:21,399 --> 00:12:25,360
dark it's it's a nighttime scene but um

272
00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,240
this is something that uh uh I found

273
00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,519
inspiring say the least you find it in

274
00:12:30,519 --> 00:12:32,839
Sam Fuller's pictures too shock Corridor

275
00:12:32,839 --> 00:12:34,240
take a look at any of the sound Cuts in

276
00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,560
shock Corridor and he had no choice

277
00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:38,760
because was so low budget um and there's

278
00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,240
a rawness or a uh it's a different

279
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,040
effect from the valuten films but

280
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,680
there's a a rawness and a power to the

281
00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:47,880
use of sound has an authority to that

282
00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,480
use of sound uh which is was on based on

283
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,560
a very limited budget

1
00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,839
as I was growing up uh music was a very

2
00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,359
important part of our our lives

3
00:00:18,359 --> 00:00:21,320
uh it wasn't a bookish culture I came

4
00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,039
from um but there was a great deal of

5
00:00:24,039 --> 00:00:28,560
Music records radio eventually uh music

6
00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:30,359
everywhere in the streets uh through

7
00:00:30,359 --> 00:00:34,079
people's windows in the summertime um

8
00:00:34,079 --> 00:00:36,239
and as I started to put together the

9
00:00:36,239 --> 00:00:38,559
impulse to tell a story I found that

10
00:00:38,559 --> 00:00:40,920
very often the music was something that

11
00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,760
created that moment of u u visualization

12
00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,000
so to speak and often the music that was

13
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:49,760
being heard or being played in the

14
00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:51,920
street or in the car radio uh

15
00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:53,280
counterpointed to the scenes I was

16
00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,680
seeing around me created the films and

17
00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,120
eventually this all led to my use of

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Music in uh who at knocking them

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particularly main streets and eventually

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uh um even Alice doesn't live her

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anymore and event and eventually Raging

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Bull um into Good Fellas Etc but um in

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in an odd way pulling on those scenes

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together hearing that uh uh everybody

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talking about movies at the time in

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1950s and my father my uncles's talking

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about certain films and then mentioning

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other stories that that are going on in

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the in the family or in the street and

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somebody would say something like oh

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they could never make a movie or that

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and that's what I wanted to do I said

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why not you know so all this was coming

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together and music was uh so prominent

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and uh almost like what you would call

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the sense memory in a sense so um it

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really begins with the music for me and

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once I hear the music I mean I really

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start to feel the story you know uh

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sometimes a piece of music reflects a

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character for me and I start to imagine

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scenes it isn't that I sit down and

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start to they start they sort of come to

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you while you're listening to the

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music when I finally started making

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feature films I knew that uh my movies

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uh would not have a proper score um they

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weren't meant to to have that in a way

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they weren't deserving of that because

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those films or the pictures that were

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made up to that time around the world

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are you know they were something that

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were

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unattainable they were the guides they

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were the um something we aspired to um

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couldn't really do something like them

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you know even though you try you know so

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the kind of films I was making just

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didn't lend themselves to this kind of

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thinking a kind of at times not more

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negative sometimes in terms of Hollywood

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scores or uh traditional scores uh

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sometimes they were coded and the

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narratives were very different there

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different ways of

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um of um indicating emotions and

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characters in music in uh in that

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tradition and I was not from that

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tradition I felt the only thing trying

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the only thing that that um the only

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thing that restricted us to a certain

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extent was that at that time we did not

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have the budgets to pay for licenses and

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so uh we did want the films to be shown

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in theaters if possible um and so that

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became uh a bit of a problem in terms of

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how much we could use where we could get

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it who would allow us to use it Etc well

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uh for example the use of Ray Beretta's

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El Watusi and uh Who's That Knocking at

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my door was a pivotal um moment for me

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in in in trying to shape a film together

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um or you know in in main streets was

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where it all finally came together um

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where somehow uh the producers Jonathan

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taplan all of them somehow found a way

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to um in a very very low budget able to

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pay for some licensing and music

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including the Rolling Stones Jumping

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Jack Flash the scene was designed around

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that song and uh Rubber Biscuit designed

92
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uh Be My Baby By The Ronettes all this

93
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all the all the scenes in the film were

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designed around those particular pieces

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of music and we were able to get for the

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most part some of the licensing done and

97
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so um for me that's how movies movies

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were made the I didn't even never

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thought of making a score for a film or

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having a score created for a film at

101
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that time um the music that I was using

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was part of the world in which the

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characters live they Echo I would hear

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them echoing through the hallways and

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the streets and the windows and car

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radios and it was like a physical as

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well as mental architecture of the world

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I was trying to create uh and in a

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way the music I chose very carefully

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chose and music that inspired me for

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certain scenes and certain films they're

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part of the spiritual life of the

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characters this was not common practice

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in Hollywood film making it really

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started later um but there were certain

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pictures in which it was a very

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important factor for instance um there

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was use of of uh popular music in the

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early 30s but not the actual recordings

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that where they use now the entire score

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there is no score for this particular

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film The only popular music and that was

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the Public Enemy the James Kagney

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William Wellman film uh classic which

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use the popular tune I'm forever blowing

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bubbles as a key element though it's not

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the original recordings uh but all the

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music in that film comes from the source

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or um whether it's a band at a nightclub

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or record on a machine there's no

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scoring the way we know the way we know

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of it today and then in the early 60s it

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was the great Kenneth anger film Scorpio

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Rising which was of course a revelation

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to to me and many others um of course

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that was not a feature film it's what's

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termed as an avangard film and wasn't

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made for the general public um so when

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when I started to make my own

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films uh the score for that film

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um freed me in a way uh and I was I

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realized that I would be able to use the

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music I was growing up with the music

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that was around me all the time whether

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it was um standards uh rock and roll um

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Opera uh classical swing jazz

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anything when I was growing up I

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Remember Loving the music from the

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Hollywood films uh you know I

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immediately could tell you of Demitri

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tiamin did something I love Mich loso's

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music David rexon uh his scores were

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extraordinary especially for force of

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evil um the 50s Elma Bernstein scores

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were remarkable also for the breath of

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his work

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um whether you know his first two scores

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were man with the golden arm and um The

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Ten

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Commandments I think it was in the same

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year

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uh me memorable and as I used to say is

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sort of his his music inhabits the film

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in a way um and um I do love traditional

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scores and I did wind up uh I did end up

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uh working with many myself myself in my

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own films but the the tradition scores

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were tended to have a uniformity to them

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as I said they they they were locked

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into certain thematic codes um nowadays

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of course A different kind of uniformity

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pop songs or lyrics and sometimes they

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actually just literally Echo the

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emotions of the characters or whatever

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and the comment right on the action or

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ironic comment on the action um which is

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something else entirely but by the time

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I finished king of comedy again there

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was no traditional score in king of

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comedy um and what I found was uh

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through a series of circumstances I

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found myself starting all over again in

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a way make movies and I wound up making

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a um an independent film in New York

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called after hours and I

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found there

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that that needed a score and

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I felt at that point in time I could

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experiment with actually working um uh

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with the new composers Howard Shore and

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I thought it was a beautiful score so um

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Howard was the one uh that really began

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a series of films for Me Howard and I

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was able then to work with Elma

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Bernstein so uh they were the ones

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actually who uh created the um the score

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uh uh which one uh relates to straight

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narrative film they were the ones who

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created first for

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me when we finally did work with scores

201
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a score like one that Howard Shore did

202
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for The Departed which was an electric

203
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guitar a Tango

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Rhythm they work in Counterpoint with

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the popular songs in the soundtrack and

206
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the Tango itself of course is a a sense

207
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of U danger it becomes a kind of Dance

208
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of Death between these two characters

209
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played by Leo and Matt uh leading

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parallel false lives and slowly

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converging

212
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um different kind of example U again

213
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here this was

214
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scoring uh not using a score uh the

215
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score for shter Island which made up of

216
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pieces of modernist composers in that

217
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film I wanted a sense

218
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of otherness of constant intrusions

219
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which sort of echoed the inner

220
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experience of this character played by

221
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Leo DiCaprio and something that could

222
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couldn't have happened with a really a a

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composer I felt uh somebody once pointed

224
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out it's almost as if you hear the music

225
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seeping through the

226
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walls like coming out of a waking dream

227
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that was the idea I didn't want one

228
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voice but many different ones and you

229
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never knew which voice was going to come

230
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at you we kept going back to the music

231
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of Leti which most filmmakers know from

232
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kubri um and this kind of score also

233
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starts with him this is the opposite of

234
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the scor for taxi driver where I was

235
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lucky enough to work with Bernard Herman

236
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uh there the music is a singular voice

237
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growing from deep within the tension

238
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between Travis and the world around him

239
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the city of New York in the

240
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1970s when I told people that I wanted

241
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to ask Herman to compose the score for

242
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taxi driver and by the way it turned out

243
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to be sadly his very last score um they

244
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weren't quite sure what I was what I was

245
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getting at um but I knew that I wanted

246
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something that would be kind of at odds

247
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with the rhythm of the city and the way

248
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it was being depicted was Travis's

249
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Rhythm you see that's the thing I didn't

250
00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:03,880
want to use popular music because he

251
00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,079
didn't listen to music so it had to come

252
00:11:06,079 --> 00:11:08,079
from inside of him something that was

253
00:11:08,079 --> 00:11:11,160
obsessive that was coiled and sort of

254
00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,360
ready to strike and explode you know

255
00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,160
it's all happening inside he doesn't let

256
00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:17,639
the outside world in doesn't let the

257
00:11:17,639 --> 00:11:20,639
music in there is one piece of popular

258
00:11:20,639 --> 00:11:23,440
music uh um Jackson Brown too late for

259
00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,480
the sky but he's watching television

260
00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,800
with that uh it's coming off the TV uh

261
00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,480
the rest that is the score of course by

262
00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,920
Bernard Herman by the time we did Last

263
00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,320
Temptation Of Christ the score again was

264
00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,240
somewhat experimental with Peter Gabriel

265
00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:42,320
uh after that was good Fellas which

266
00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,279
again was the popular music or music of

267
00:11:44,279 --> 00:11:47,839
the source music so to

268
00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,040
speak I was very disappointed when I

269
00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,399
learned uh as a starting to make my

270
00:11:57,399 --> 00:11:58,920
first films that playing back music on

271
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the set

272
00:11:59,839 --> 00:12:01,519
and having the actress talk over it

273
00:12:01,519 --> 00:12:04,079
ruins the soundtrack of the

274
00:12:04,079 --> 00:12:07,360
actors but it kept the energy going and

275
00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:08,959
I figured well you know you could Loop

276
00:12:08,959 --> 00:12:09,959
some of it I didn't want to do that

277
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because I wanted the energy of the

278
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actress plus the music and so over the

279
00:12:12,959 --> 00:12:14,519
years we've been finding ways to try to

280
00:12:14,519 --> 00:12:18,240
play with that sometimes um and I've

281
00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,440
done it often in the case for example of

282
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Good Fellas when uh um the uh last

283
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,320
section of Leila is heard I would play

284
00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,639
that back on the set to design um I I

285
00:12:29,639 --> 00:12:32,040
would played that back on the set um for

286
00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:33,600
the pace of the camera

287
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:38,120
tracking and the the sense of the whole

288
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uh quality the spirit of the film at

289
00:12:40,839 --> 00:12:44,000
that point

290
00:13:06,399 --> 00:13:08,600
and this uh helped with the crew it

291
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helped with uh the actors um uh and made

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it something very special I would do

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things sometimes uh and use music that

294
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would not be used in the film but I like

295
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the feeling of it for camera moves uh

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like the lantern from um satanic

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Majesty's request by the Stones uh

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playing that back on set sometimes so um

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uh primarily though if I do play it back

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on set it's in the film and it creates a

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great atmosphere on the set

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ultimately a film when it's completed uh

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there was a period of time where I

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remember um my first films opening up

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doing some interviews press interviews

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very little television uh well the point

6
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is this that I you know if you're in

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narrative Cinema and you're making films

8
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you're an American filmmaker and whether

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you make them in New York or Chicago and

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Austin Texas and everything kind of

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around the world they feel they're

12
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Hollywood films even if they're um of a

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different style uh but particularly back

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in the the early 70s all the way through

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the 70s they were coming out of

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Hollywood in a way um even though some

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of them were shot in New York and edited

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here they really were so once they were

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picked up for distribution the distri

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ition companies with the Hollywood

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companies at least the films that I've

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made you know and so these had to go

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through the Hollywood studio system in

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terms of uh uh in terms of letting the

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audience know the film is out

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there you have to you write a book you

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got to let people know it's there you

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know uh you do a film you got to let

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them know it's there whether you do it

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and it's uh Michael Snow's wavelength or

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whether it's uh you know uh um Godfather

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one you know Godfather 2 I mean there's

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an audience a certain kind of audience

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too I don't say the the you know um each

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film every film is for the widest range

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you can once you do that you're you're

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uh creating an effect in the film that

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is uh watering down the picture so uh if

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you find that you made a film that you

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feel strongly about you feel you get as

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truthful as possible in it there might

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00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,719
be an audience out there for it now you

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got to go out and present it to an

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audience how was that done in many

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different ways usually it's the actors

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you know people want to see certain

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actors in there u in the case of um

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certain individual films made in the 60s

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and early 7s there was critical reaction

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critics there were certain critics

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around were very very powerful at the

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time you had to let the audience know

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that the picture's out there so you find

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that um particularly at that time you

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could have input in the trailers Coming

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Attractions you certainly could have

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input in the posters um in the uh

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publicity campaign you got to be part of

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all of

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it I remember when Bonnie and Clyde uh

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was made um Warren batty produced it and

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uh it was killed by the New York Times

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the the the review and and what batty

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did was as a producer of the film he

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took a print of the picture by hand you

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know the hand and in these cans and went

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from town to town and went on every

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television show and promoted the

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film um the uh as a side as a side point

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the New York Times re reviewed the film

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positively um but that was also a

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watershed moment because American Cinema

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was changing so much and Bunny and Clyde

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was the Forefront of that Arthur pan and

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and batty but um this was the way you

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believe in the film you go out and you

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talk about it as best you can um there

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were different kinds of uh there are

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different kinds too of reasons for doing

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it um in some cases it's enjoyable you

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had a good time with the people making

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00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:51,439
the film you go out you enjoy yourself

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00:03:51,439 --> 00:03:53,480
you celebrate a little little with the

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actors with the people uh that work on

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the film with the studio people and if

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it makes it it makes it you know it

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doesn't it does at least you've tried

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00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:04,040
other times you've invested so much of

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your own money and your life into it

90
00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,079
you'd better go out and and talk about

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00:04:08,079 --> 00:04:13,079
it um without over saturating the market

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00:04:13,079 --> 00:04:16,040
uh with yourself so to speak U that

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00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,840
includes the actor includes the director

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00:04:18,840 --> 00:04:21,959
whatever um and other times it's good

95
00:04:21,959 --> 00:04:25,840
just to not do anything just let it play

96
00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:28,320
if it gets support and gets what they

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call Word of Mouth

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00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:32,039
it's good to let it

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00:04:32,039 --> 00:04:35,919
play so um the key is though you have to

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00:04:35,919 --> 00:04:37,880
let people if you want people to see it

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00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,840
you got to let them know it's

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00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:50,039
there taxi driver did very well um at

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00:04:50,039 --> 00:04:53,360
the box office I hadn't thought it would

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00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,560
uh I was I was uh intent on using a

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certain kind of poster for the picture

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and uh they allowed us to get the

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posters made there are different images

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One Beautiful One by GRE pilart is is

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extraordinary but the one that did the

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most uh for the uh for the picture was

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just a simple still from the movie

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00:05:15,039 --> 00:05:17,520
itself kind of a black and white but

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00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,720
lavender finish to it and just a shot of

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00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,639
dairo walking up 8th Avenue that sold

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00:05:22,639 --> 00:05:25,680
the picture if you had asked me to say

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what poster or what image was going to

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sell the film I wouldn't have said that

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but it did

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00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:37,680
so I find that you know I have to I have

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to uh be very patient and be uh very uh

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00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,240
open to many different ways of um many

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different ideas from uh people who do

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00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,680
sell films so to speak so it's a very

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00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:52,240
complicated thing because in in certain

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cases some films uh was subject to a lot

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00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,319
of uh contention during the shooting

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during the editing the studio fighting

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as I say years ago people could still do

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it actors take away a film uh Studio

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takes it away the financiers take it

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away so there's a lot of contention and

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very often nobody can agree and and so

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when the film opens they throw it away

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basically and you could go out you could

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take it and you could sell it now go out

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meaning go from town to town well today

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you have the

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internet I'm uh behind on that so I

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can't really uh it just seems the

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information is out there but all the

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information's out there so how do you

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find it

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00:00:02,300 --> 00:00:14,539
[Music]

2
00:00:18,279 --> 00:00:20,160
the whole thing here of course is

3
00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,439
establishing a pace and a mood and a

4
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context of the period that has to do

5
00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,000
with the behavior of the people in the

6
00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,320
frame the pace of the camera pulling

7
00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,800
back from the statue and the use of

8
00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,000
music it's a a scene that

9
00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,000
somehow I remember upon first seeing

10
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,360
this um through the use of natural light

11
00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,120
the beginnings of the voice over that

12
00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,480
doesn't intrude in the picture but uh

13
00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:51,239
adds to the uh the world that the film

14
00:00:51,239 --> 00:00:54,280
is depicting First

15
00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,760
Love what a change it makes in a

16
00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,879
land what a magnificence secret it is

17
00:01:00,879 --> 00:01:03,320
that he carries about with

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him the tender passion gushes

19
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instinctively out of a man's heart the

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behavior of the actors and particularly

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the whole

22
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piece just cut to this medium closeup

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the look in her

24
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eyes this whole piece kind of has a a

25
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it's a wonderful example of a kind of

26
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excruciating um enjoyment uh the

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withholding of the

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sexuality and this is done through the

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very slow pacing

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compositions look in her

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face and also sets the entire tone for

32
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the film uh in terms of um the behavior

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of the characters behavior of the actors

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and once again I can't express enough

35
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the use of the imagery to revoke 18th

36
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centur the 18th century 18th century

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paintings the cousin here of course is

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is directing everything if you find it

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she has a kind of um single-minded uh

40
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approach to everything here in this

41
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scene is you know she's

42
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ruthless the use of natural light places

43
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you in the emotional and psychological

44
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state of the characters every image

45
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embodies the structure of an entire

46
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society and the savagery that it

47
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contains so immediately from the first

48
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scene you have such a powerful

49
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understanding of how people behaved and

50
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related to each

51
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other I cannot

52
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find you haven't looked properly the

53
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deliberateness of the dialogue and the

54
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pauses between the sentences it takes

55
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you back like a time machine into

56
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another way of living and thinking

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because nothing was fast around them it

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was all slow and intense I cannot find

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[Music]

60
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it I'll give you a hint I think the

61
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filter on the T shut has to do more with

62
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uh conscious effort to uh to evoke

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painting there's no doubt

64
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[Music]

65
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I feel the

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ribbon why are you

67
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trembling

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[Music]

69
00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,400
okay she talks about trembling but the

70
00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,799
whole scene is trembling in that way and

71
00:03:51,799 --> 00:03:54,079
you really feel here the the the angle

72
00:03:54,079 --> 00:03:55,599
change is setting up it's a beautiful

73
00:03:55,599 --> 00:03:57,280
light still on her but it really is

74
00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,400
setting up the light for Ryan O'Neal's

75
00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:00,480
face here

76
00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,120
and the

77
00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,560
kiss but the key to this whole scene is

78
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the the

79
00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,879
excruciating uh enjoyment of the

80
00:04:08,879 --> 00:04:11,159
trembling there's an authority to take

81
00:04:11,159 --> 00:04:13,720
take a film like this and um have the

82
00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,040
command of that pace of a narrative film

83
00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,120
and demand this from an audience you

84
00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,440
know and it it doesn't

85
00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,759
seem that far um uh that far out of the

86
00:04:25,759 --> 00:04:27,440
uh out of the out of the norm for

87
00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,720
Stanley KU particularly because he EST

88
00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,600
established this kind of

89
00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,120
concentration of um of viewing for the

90
00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:39,160
audience in 2001 Space odyy and so here

91
00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:43,520
it's the similar thing only back in time

1
00:00:02,300 --> 00:00:14,539
[Music]

2
00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:17,439
I'm a great admirer of Turner's films so

3
00:00:17,439 --> 00:00:19,119
here you see an extraordinary example of

4
00:00:19,119 --> 00:00:20,400
it in terms of the use of light and

5
00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,880
Shadow and the subtlety of his visual

6
00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,960
language particularly in the next cut

7
00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:33,240
here dark and Shadow he looks down the

8
00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,800
camera simply tilts and you realize

9
00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,520
there's a body there Cuts back up full

10
00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,039
light on his face now the camera stays

11
00:00:43,039 --> 00:00:46,719
behind the seat through

12
00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,000
curtain tracking to the right and really

13
00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,039
the whole scene becomes about the way

14
00:00:52,039 --> 00:00:54,120
Rober Mitch moves through the through

15
00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:56,399
the shadows in the light and how he

16
00:00:56,399 --> 00:00:59,680
cleans up quote unquote this uh horrific

17
00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,160
scene so to speak as scene is something

18
00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,400
again with the Shadows um uh very strong

19
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Shadows one of the key elements in this

20
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film is how well it's the epitome of

21
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cool in a way and it it's it's it

22
00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,479
processed through Mitchum you know young

23
00:01:16,479 --> 00:01:18,280
people have seen the picture suddenly

24
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turn and say at the end boy that's the

25
00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:21,560
coolest film I've ever seen it's

26
00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,040
restrained and yet extremely powerful

27
00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,119
and rich as opposed to the camera moves

28
00:01:26,119 --> 00:01:28,560
for example an 8 and A2 or uh the very

29
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bold use of um movement and color in

30
00:01:31,159 --> 00:01:33,920
Vertigo this seems to be the opposite if

31
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anything would have become iconic of fil

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Noir this picture is it

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obviously I think I was 5 years old and

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I saw this in a theater I was concerned

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I think it was on the bottom half of a

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double bill on a re-release of Bambi

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00:01:48,759 --> 00:01:51,360
actually and both were RKO releases so

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00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:55,719
it could be um and I remember uh uh my

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00:01:55,719 --> 00:01:57,799
aunt who had taken me to see the Bambi I

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00:01:57,799 --> 00:01:59,360
was complaining that this film was going

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on too long

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00:02:01,119 --> 00:02:02,560
um and she told me to be quiet because

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00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,719
she was really enjoying it but I'll

44
00:02:04,719 --> 00:02:06,799
never forget the body being put in the

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00:02:06,799 --> 00:02:08,800
uh in the uh

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00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,720
closet um and the impression it left on

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00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,400
me the picture because of the use of um

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Shadows and Light I think it may have

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00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:20,000
been the first true Noir that I saw yeah

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00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:25,120
five or six years old inadvertently

1
00:00:02,300 --> 00:00:16,210
[Music]

2
00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:21,439
this the beginning of Jules and Jim the

3
00:00:21,439 --> 00:00:23,000
first three or four minutes which

4
00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:24,640
influenc the style of Good Fellas in

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00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:26,320
casino and Wolf of Wall Street and so

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00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,359
many but here you see I think a lot of

7
00:00:28,359 --> 00:00:30,519
it has to do with the Rel lessness of

8
00:00:30,519 --> 00:00:33,239
the voice over and the rapid speech and

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00:00:33,239 --> 00:00:35,960
also the pace of the music under it it's

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00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,160
pushing the images forward pushing uh

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00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:40,320
all of this uh storytelling forward

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00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,719
they're saying so much about each

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character there's no connection straight

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00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,960
narrative with the images it just goes

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everywhere particularly at this moment

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when he's introduced to the girls that

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00:00:54,039 --> 00:00:56,359
image comes on very quickly and

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00:00:56,359 --> 00:00:59,480
leaves the pans now the change of

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00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:00,600
location

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00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,239
is uh something that is uh completely

21
00:01:04,239 --> 00:01:06,799
unexpected but here between the

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00:01:06,799 --> 00:01:08,479
voiceover the movement of the actors in

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the frame the compositions in each frame

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and um the driving force of the music

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00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:15,960
the Beat of the Music under all of this

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00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:18,280
gave me the impression the possibility

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of doing an entire film this way or at

28
00:01:21,119 --> 00:01:23,040
least having the freedom it feels like

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00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:24,520
it's a sense of Freedom anything can

30
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,360
happen any moment you weren't tied to a

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00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,799
direct story even in a even if it was a

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00:01:30,799 --> 00:01:34,040
story to the extent of a character

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00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,079
walking in a scene sitting down getting

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00:01:36,079 --> 00:01:38,240
up walking around or walking in a park

35
00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,520
this is um The Narrative is completely

36
00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:43,119
fractured I

37
00:01:43,119 --> 00:01:46,280
think by this uh uh extraordinary

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00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,000
sequence

1
00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:15,639
this is the Ernie seene alred

2
00:00:15,639 --> 00:00:18,439
Hitchcock's vertigo where he first sees

3
00:00:18,439 --> 00:00:21,279
madlin that's steuart's move as he moves

4
00:00:21,279 --> 00:00:23,720
away which makes him vulnerable camera

5
00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,480
pulls back and it's the entire

6
00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,560
restaurant there's no music just the

7
00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:30,840
sound of the people in the restaurant

8
00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:32,759
um the use of red but you begin to

9
00:00:32,759 --> 00:00:34,640
notice a color that stands out and

10
00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,760
that's the green the folds of her dress

11
00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:40,280
actually uh the background actions very

12
00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:42,280
important people are being sent across

13
00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,960
the frame to a table and suddenly a

14
00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,960
focuses on

15
00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,760
her we don't see her face yet but she's

16
00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,239
a figure and the angle on Stuart looking

17
00:00:57,239 --> 00:01:00,519
at her from the side of his right where

18
00:01:00,519 --> 00:01:03,039
he's looking over her here's his point

19
00:01:03,039 --> 00:01:05,199
of

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00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,840
view again framed and reframed and red

21
00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:14,200
around her angle over his shoulder she

22
00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:15,799
comes forward now and here's the key

23
00:01:15,799 --> 00:01:19,840
moment she comes into this beautiful

24
00:01:20,320 --> 00:01:24,159
lighting and the

25
00:01:24,159 --> 00:01:27,400
profile and the actual color the wall

26
00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,799
starts to change

27
00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,159
notice the closeup on him has changed

28
00:01:33,159 --> 00:01:35,200
over his shoulder certainly makes it the

29
00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,360
most vulnerable she slips out of that

30
00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:39,640
frame and that two shot as she walks out

31
00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,000
but she feels like a ghost of some kind

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00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:43,360
maybe that has a lot to do with the

33
00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,439
nature of the dress she's wearing but

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00:01:45,439 --> 00:01:46,960
particularly in that shot she floats

35
00:01:46,960 --> 00:01:49,840
away you know he's already in love with

36
00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,040
h a person who's died now mind you when

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00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:53,680
I first saw this film at the Capitol

38
00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,640
Theater in New York in Vista Vision By

39
00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,240
the way um we felt in the emotional

40
00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,280
power of this but we didn't understand I

41
00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:02,960
mean we didn't know it was done we

42
00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:04,840
didn't understand how and why it had a

43
00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:06,520
sense maybe with the music we sensed

44
00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,080
that the color got more intense but it

45
00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,000
really has to do with her face and uh

46
00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,959
the angle on James Stewart

1
00:00:02,300 --> 00:00:07,160
[Music]

2
00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:08,840
eight and a half for example is a very

3
00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,480
surprising film um once you get the idea

4
00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,320
once you begin to feel that these are

5
00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,600
memories or these are fantasies it's all

6
00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:19,640
right but you try not to I remember

7
00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:21,640
seeing it I was about 18 years old so

8
00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,039
you try not to follow it you were sort

9
00:00:24,039 --> 00:00:27,519
of uh uh along for the ride so to speak

10
00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:32,239
and um the beauty of

11
00:00:32,239 --> 00:00:36,719
the shifts back and forth in time or uh

12
00:00:36,719 --> 00:00:39,399
the shifts to Fantasy um the

13
00:00:39,399 --> 00:00:42,399
effortlessness of the cut for example

14
00:00:42,399 --> 00:00:44,800
even the cut of him standing in line for

15
00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:46,760
the special water that's being given out

16
00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,960
at the at the spa and uh the wonderful

17
00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,000
moment where he moves his glasses down

18
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,920
like so and then sees it cuts to clod

19
00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:57,520
cardali dressed as one of the nurses

20
00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,079
coming out and offering the water to him

21
00:01:00,079 --> 00:01:03,239
it's an obvious um uh flashback or no I

22
00:01:03,239 --> 00:01:07,720
should say a fantasy in a way uh but one

23
00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,479
looks at the composition on mastriani

24
00:01:11,479 --> 00:01:14,240
his costume his glasses the use of

25
00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:18,360
rasini music and ultimately the cut to

26
00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:23,079
um CL Cali is Overexposed too it's

27
00:01:23,079 --> 00:01:26,680
Overexposed and it becomes very quiet he

28
00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:31,520
was able to play with uh the image in

29
00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,040
such a plastic way kept stretching the

30
00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:35,759
images and stretching The Cutting of the

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00:01:35,759 --> 00:01:41,280
film so that uh it exists in some uh

32
00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,759
subconscious level these seemingly uh

33
00:01:44,759 --> 00:01:47,200
neutral frames if you if you take a

34
00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,159
really close look at that picture have a

35
00:01:49,159 --> 00:01:51,759
composition or a lighting effect that

36
00:01:51,759 --> 00:01:54,439
throws one off in a sense that that that

37
00:01:54,439 --> 00:01:59,680
um is uh somehow uh imbued with the um

38
00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:00,600
uh

39
00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,399
perception of Guido the director um in

40
00:02:04,399 --> 00:02:06,640
the film his perception which might be

41
00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,000
off might be emphasizing one thing over

42
00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,160
the other and when he goes to the um the

43
00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,480
uh steam bats to uh try to get uh uh

44
00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:18,640
some sort of spiritual guidance from the

45
00:02:18,640 --> 00:02:21,599
Cardinal just the shots of

46
00:02:21,599 --> 00:02:24,720
him uh going down into the bath and how

47
00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:26,480
everyone's talking to the camera talking

48
00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:28,360
to him saying he can fix my Mexican

49
00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,440
Divorce he can do this his guy

50
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,040
support us and this is what we need for

51
00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:37,160
the film it's how one chooses to show

52
00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:42,720
impressions of that encounter and his

53
00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,879
choice of angle and his choice of

54
00:02:45,879 --> 00:02:48,920
lighting and his choice of size the

55
00:02:48,920 --> 00:02:50,200
composition and the size of the people

56
00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,480
in the frames um are all something that

57
00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:57,280
becomes uh uh fluid these are things

58
00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,239
that because Guido is feeling so

59
00:02:59,239 --> 00:03:01,200
strongly about the need to have some

60
00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,000
sort of guidance or maybe to have some

61
00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:04,720
sort of spiritual guidance it's what he

62
00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:06,239
takes back from this meeting he

63
00:03:06,239 --> 00:03:08,480
remembers the shadow he remembers the

64
00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,760
frail body of the um of the Cardinal um

65
00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,080
uh this Godlike figure who is judging

66
00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:19,959
him almost in a way um the steam um the

67
00:03:19,959 --> 00:03:22,120
steam which is from Dante's Inferno you

68
00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,760
know all of this all of this uh uh

69
00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,920
hallucinogenic uh perception of um a

70
00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:32,920
filmmaker

1
00:00:02,300 --> 00:00:07,640
[Music]

2
00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:09,679
well that's the end of U my master class

3
00:00:09,679 --> 00:00:12,480
and I I want to go back to where we

4
00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,800
began and say once again that you have

5
00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:18,840
to find your own way I mean there are no

6
00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,160
manuals no shortcuts no secrets you

7
00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:23,760
write your own manual you develop your

8
00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,199
own shortcuts you find your own

9
00:00:26,199 --> 00:00:29,320
secrets you go where you're drawn to go

10
00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,399
and you learn by doing the work I mean

11
00:00:32,399 --> 00:00:34,320
if you're scared if it all seems like

12
00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,840
too daunting if the the Machinery of it

13
00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:38,840
all seems too big and scary and

14
00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,039
overwhelming it's great you wake up in

15
00:00:42,039 --> 00:00:44,520
the morning and you do it anyway if it

16
00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,520
seems impossible it's even better you do

17
00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:49,760
it

18
00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,359
anyway and as you go like I said

19
00:00:52,359 --> 00:00:55,280
remember that amidst all that

20
00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,120
Machinery you're the one who's going to

21
00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:58,559
make the

22
00:00:58,559 --> 00:01:01,719
picture it's just you and the thing that

23
00:01:01,719 --> 00:01:03,720
sparked you to make the

24
00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,840
film you and the spark in the end

25
00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,960
they're one and the same you guard that

26
00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:12,439
because it's

27
00:01:12,439 --> 00:01:17,280
precious now it's time to get to work

28
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[Music]